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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 9:11 am

    Oni moraju to, sta god, da zavrse do zime. Inace ce morati da nadju jos podosta onih kojima se ratuje po Ukrajini.
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Sat May 28, 2022 9:17 am

    trenutno deluje da ne moraju oni ništa.


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 9:30 am

    Ovo su sad operacije na relativno maloj teritoriji. Nadam se da necemo gledati, ali ali videcemo (ponovo) kako to izgleda ako krenu na neki veci zalogaj. Prvo cemo videti kod ova dva glavna ukrajinska uporista u Donbasu. Prosto, bilo je prerano za definitivne i ozbiljne zakljucke i kad su se povlacili od Kijeva i Harkova, prerano je i sada.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 11:17 am

    Odluke Sabora Ukrajinske pravoslavne crkve Moskovske patrijaršije:

    4. Собор ухвалив відповідні доповнення і зміни до Статуту про управління Української Православної Церкви, що свідчать про повну самостійність і незалежність Української Православної Церкви.

    Google translate

    4.The Council adopted appropriate amendments to the Statute on the Administration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which testify to the full independence and autonomy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sat May 28, 2022 11:18 am

    Bleeding Blitva

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    Post by Bleeding Blitva Sat May 28, 2022 11:57 am

    Burna povijest Donbasa

    Zanimljiv povijesni presjek o ulozi rudara u Donbasu

    Rudari u Donbasu godinama su bili kontinuirano u političkim borbama s moćnim protivnicima, državom i vlastima. Rudarski pokreti su se kroz godine transformirali, politički se profilirali i bitno utjecali na politiku. Ironija je u tome, što iako su rudari Donbasa bili ključni u političkim borbama, kako za ukrajinsku neovisnost tako i za politički život neovisne Ukrajine, nisu uspjeli u onom temeljnom cilju. Nisu se uspjeli izboriti za poboljšanje radnih uvjeta rudara.
    Zbog čega su rudari u Donbasu mogli ostvariti političke ciljeve ili, ako ništa, utjecati na te ciljeve, a s druge strane nisu uspjeli u ostvarenju ekonomskih i socijalnih ciljeva? Prvi razlog prema teoriji Stephana Crowleyja, stručnjaka za politiku Rusije i istočne Europe, leži u tome što rudari nisu uspjeli potaknuti solidarnost ostalih radnika u SSSR-u, a kasnije u Ukrajini da bi se dogodile ozbiljne socijalne promjene u zemlji. Tako su političku borbu za neovisnu Ukrajinu koju su predvodili ukrajinska inteligencija i rudari u Donbasu postepeno preuzele bivša sovjetska nomenklatura i nove poslovne elite (oligarsi).
    To se može očitovati u prvom predsjedniku Ukrajine Leonidu Kravčuku, koji je simbol upravo tog preuzimanja. Bivši sovjetski dužnosnik i bivši komunist, simbol onog protiv čega su se ukrajinska inteligencija i rudari borili, postao je predsjednik neovisne Ukrajine. Nove poslovne elite su uspostavljene za vrijeme predsjednika Kučme, kada su se uspostavila tri centra moći: Kijev, Dnjepropetrovsk (današnji Dnipro) i Donjeck.
    Tijekom druge faze, ukrajinska inteligencija i rudari su se razišli. Novi partneri rudarima su tako postali menadžeri poduzeća za preradu ugljena, lokalni oligarsi i stanovništvo vezano ruskim kulturnim utjecajem. Pokret rudara se tako transformirao u regionalni politički pokret, što će se tek kasnije zaokružiti osnivanjem Partije regija na čijem je čelu do 2014. godine bio Viktor Janukovič.
    To se može smatrati završetkom političke transformacije i političkog profiliranja rudara. Politički Kijev je tako postao antagonist rudarima. No pravi protivnik rudara je bila daljnja "oligarhijska privatizacija". Elita u Donbasu je dobila dozvolu Kijeva da nastavi daljnju privatizaciju i redistribuciju državne imovine po modelu političkih poznanstava.
    U trećoj fazi rudari su izgubili i podršku stanovništva Donbasa. Kako je za vrijeme predsjednika Kučme podijeljena politička moć između Kijeva, Dnjepropetrovska i Donjecka tako su nastali fragmentacija i dijeljenje političkih interesa. Radnici su se nastavili dijeliti po tim linijama. Radnici iz drugih sektora su imali sve manje sluha za potrebe rudara zato što su se i sami nalazili u nezavidnim položajima. Elite su nastavile po potrebi koristiti represiju kao alat za ostanak na vlasti.


    _____
    my goosebumps have goosebumps
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sat May 28, 2022 12:11 pm

    Novinarka CNBC-ja koja izveštava iz Davosa:

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 15 FTywHhwWYAIpgGN?format=jpg&name=large

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CeAueyOqH2p/
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 12:17 pm


    Tako su političku borbu za neovisnu Ukrajinu koju su predvodili ukrajinska inteligencija i rudari u Donbasu postepeno preuzele bivša sovjetska nomenklatura i nove poslovne elite (oligarsi).

    Klasika
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 12:19 pm

    rumbeando wrote:Novinarka CNBC-ja koja izveštava iz Davosa:

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 15 FTywHhwWYAIpgGN?format=jpg&name=large

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CeAueyOqH2p/

    Da li neko uopste ima ideju o kojoj teritoriji se prica? (Da stavimo sad tzv. moralno-politicke dileme na stranu...)
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Sat May 28, 2022 12:25 pm

    rumbeando wrote:Novinarka CNBC-ja koja izveštava iz Davosa:



    https://www.instagram.com/p/CeAueyOqH2p/


    komentar:  

    хай ця продажна kурва в dупу йде

    (ukr odma razumem)


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sat May 28, 2022 12:35 pm

    Ukrainian volunteer fighters in the east feel abandoned

    DRUZHKIVKA, Ukraine — Stuck in their trenches, the Ukrainian volunteers lived off a potato per day as Russian forces pounded them with artillery and Grad rockets on a key eastern front line. Outnumbered, untrained and clutching only light weapons, the men prayed for the barrage to end — and for their own tanks to stop targeting the Russians.
    “They [Russians] already know where we are, and when the Ukrainian tank shoots from our side it gives away our position,” said Serhi Lapko, their company commander, recalling the recent battle. “And they start firing back with everything — Grads, mortars.
    “And you just pray to survive.”
    Ukrainian leaders have projected and nurtured a public image of military invulnerability — of their volunteer and professional forces triumphantly standing up to the Russian onslaught. Videos of assaults on Russian tanks or positions are posted daily on social media. Artists are creating patriotic posters, billboards and T-shirts. The postal service even released stamps commemorating the sinking of a Russian warship in the Black Sea.
    Ukrainian forces have succeeded in thwarting Russian efforts to seize Kyiv and Kharkiv and have scored battlefield victories in the east. But the experience of Lapko and his group of volunteers offers a rare and more realistic portrait of the conflict and Ukraine’s struggle to halt the Russian advance in parts of Donbas. Ukraine, like Russia, has provided scant information about deaths, injuries or losses of military equipment. But after three months of war, this company of 120 men is down to 54 because of deaths, injuries and desertions.
    The volunteers were civilians before Russia invaded on Feb. 24, and they never expected to be dispatched to one of the most dangerous front lines in eastern Ukraine. They quickly found themselves in the crosshairs of war, feeling abandoned by their military superiors and struggling to survive.
    “Our command takes no responsibility,” Lapko said. “They only take credit for our achievements. They give us no support.”
    When they could take it no longer, Lapko and his top lieutenant, Vitaliy Khrus, retreated with members of their company this week to a hotel away from the front. There, both men spoke to The Washington Post on the record, knowing they could face a court-martial and time in military prison.
    “If I speak for myself, I’m not a battlefield commander,” he added. “But the guys will stand by me, and I will stand by them till the end.”
    The volunteers’ battalion commander, Ihor Kisileichuk, did not respond to calls or written questions from The Post in time for publication, but he sent a terse message late Thursday saying: “Without this commander, the unit protects our land,” in an apparent reference to Lapko. A Ukrainian military spokesman declined immediate comment, saying it would take “days” to provide a response.
    “War breaks people down,” said Serhiy Haidai, head of the regional war administration in Luhansk province, acknowledging many volunteers were not properly trained because Ukrainian authorities did not expect Russia to invade. But he maintained that all soldiers are taken care of: “They have enough medical supplies and food. The only thing is there are people that aren’t ready to fight.”
    But Lapko and Khrus’s concerns were echoed recently by a platoon of the 115th Brigade 3rd Battalion, based nearby in the besieged city of Severodonetsk. In a video uploaded to Telegram on May 24, and confirmed as authentic by an aide to Haidai, volunteers said they will no longer fight because they lacked proper weapons, rear support and military leadership.
    “We are being sent to certain death,” said a volunteer, reading from a prepared script, adding that a similar video was filmed by members of the 115th Brigade 1st Battalion. “We are not alone like this, we are many.”
    Ukraine’s military rebutted the volunteers’ claims in their own video posted online, saying the “deserters” had everything they needed to fight: “They thought they came for a vacation,” one service member said. “That’s why they left their positions.”
    Hours after The Post interviewed Lapko and Khrus, members of Ukraine’s military security service arrived at their hotel and detained some of their men, accusing them of desertion.
    The men contend that they were the ones who were deserted.

    Waiting to die

    Before the invasion, Lapko was a driller of oil and gas wells. Khrus bought and sold power tools. Both lived in the western city of Uzhhorod and joined the territorial defense forces, a civilian militia that sprang up after the invasion.
    Lapko, built like a wrestler, was made a company commander in the 5th Separate Rifle Battalion, in charge of 120 men. The similarly burly Khrus became a platoon commander under Lapko. All of their comrades were from western Ukraine. They were handed AK-47 rifles and given training that lasted less than a half-hour.
    “We shot 30 bullets and then they said, ‘You can’t get more; too expensive,’ ” Lapko said.
    They were given orders to head to the western city of Lviv. When they got there, they were ordered to go south and then east into Luhansk province in Donbas, portions of which were already under the control of Moscow-backed separatists and are now occupied by Russian forces. A couple dozen of his men refused to fight, Lapko said, and they were imprisoned.
    The ones who stayed were based in the town of Lysychansk. From there, they were dispatched to Toshkivka, a front-line village bordering the separatist areas where the Russian forces were trying to advance. They were surprised when they got the orders.
    “When we were coming here, we were told that we were going to be in the third line on defense,” Lapko said. “Instead, we came to the zero line, the front line. We didn’t know where we were going.”
    The area has become a focal point of the war, as Moscow concentrates its military might on capturing the region. The city of Severodonetsk, near Lysychansk, is surrounded on three sides by Russian forces. Over the weekend, they destroyed one of three bridges into the city, and they are constantly shelling the other two. Ukrainian troops inside Severodonetsk are fighting to prevent the Russians from completely encircling the city.
    That’s also the mission of Lapko’s men. If Toshkivka falls, the Russians can advance north toward Lysychansk and completely surround Severodonetsk. That would also allow them to go after larger cities in the region.
    When the volunteers first arrived, their rotations in and out of Toshkivka lasted three or four days. As the war intensified, they stayed for a week minimum, sometimes two. “Food gets delivered every day except for when there are shellings or the situation is bad,” Khrus said.
    And in recent weeks, he said, the situation has gotten much worse. When their supply chains were cut off for two days by the bombardment, the men were forced to make do with a potato a day.
    They spend most days and nights in trenches dug into the forest on the edges of Toshkivka or inside the basements of abandoned houses. “They have no water, nothing there,” Lapko said. “Only water that I bring them every other day.”
    It’s a miracle the Russians haven’t pushed through their defensive line in Toshkivka, Khrus said as Lapko nodded. Besides their rifles and hand grenades, the only weapons they were given were a handful of rocket-propelled grenades to counter the well-equipped Russian forces. And no one showed Lapko’s men how to use the RPGs.
    “We had no proper training,” Lapko said.
    “It’s around four RPGs for 15 men,” Khrus said, shaking his head.
    The Russians, he said, are deploying tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, Grad rockets and other forms of artillery — when they try to penetrate the forest with ground troops or infantry vehicles, they can easily get close enough “to kill.”
    “The situation is controllable but difficult,” Khrus said. “And when the heavy weapons are against us, we don’t have anything to work with. We are helpless.”
    Behind their positions, Ukrainian forces have tanks, artillery and mortars to back Lapko’s men and other units along the front. But when the tanks or mortars are fired, the Russians respond with Grad rockets, often in areas where Lapko’s men are taking cover. In some cases, his troops have found themselves with no artillery support.
    This is, in part, because Lapko has not been provided a radio, he said. So there’s no contact with his superiors in Lysychansk, preventing him from calling for help.
    The men accuse the Russians of using phosphorous bombs, incendiary weapons that are banned by international law if used against civilians.
    “It explodes at 30 to 50 meters high and goes down slowly and burns everything,” Khrus said.
    “Do you know what we have against phosphorous?” Lapko asked. “A glass of water, a piece of cloth to cover your mouth with!”
    Both Lapko and Khrus expect to die at the front. That is why Lapko carries a pistol.
    “It’s just a toy against them, but I have it so that if they take me I will shoot myself,” he said.

    Survival

    Despite the hardships, his men have fought courageously, Lapko said. Pointing at Khrus, he declared: “This guy here is a legend, a hero.” Khrus and his platoon, his commander said, have killed more than 50 Russian soldiers in close-up battles.
    In a recent clash, he said, his men attacked two Russian armored vehicles carrying about 30 soldiers, ambushing them with grenades and guns.
    “Their mistake was not to come behind us,” Lapko said. “If they would have done that, I wouldn’t be talking to you here now.”
    Lapko has recommended 12 of his men for medals of valor, including two posthumously.
    The war has taken a heavy toll on his company — as well as on other Ukrainian forces in the area. Two of his men were killed, among 20 fatalities in the battalion as a whole, and “many are wounded and in recovery now,” he said.
    Then there are those who are traumatized and have not returned.
    “Many got shell shock. I don’t know how to count them,” Lapko said.
    The casualties here are largely kept secret to protect morale among troops and the general public.
    “On Ukrainian TV we see that there are no losses,” Lapko said. “There’s no truth.”
    Most deaths, he added, were because injured soldiers were not evacuated quickly enough, often waiting as long as 12 hours for transport to a military hospital in Lysychansk, 15 miles away. Sometimes, the men have to carry an injured soldier on a stretcher as far as two miles on foot to find a vehicle, Lapko said. Two vehicles assigned to his company never arrived, he said, and are being used instead by people at military headquarters.
    “If I had a car and was told that my comrade is wounded somewhere, I’d come anytime and get him,” said Lapko, who used his own beat-up car to travel from Lysychansk to the hotel. “But I don’t have the necessary transport to get there.”

    Retreat

    Lapko and his men have grown increasingly frustrated and disillusioned with their superiors. His request for the awards has not been approved. His battalion commander demanded that he send 20 of his soldiers to another front line, which meant that he couldn’t rotate his men out from Toshkivka. He refused the order.
    The final affront arrived last week when he arrived at military headquarters in Lysychansk after two weeks in Toshkivka. His battalion commander and team had moved to another town without informing him, he said, taking food, water and other supplies.
    “They left us with no explanation,” Lapko said. “I think we were sent here to close a gap and no one cares if we live or die.”
    So he, Khrus and several members of their company drove the 60 miles to Druzhkivka to stay in a hotel for a few days. “My guys wanted to wash themselves for the first time in a month,” Lapko said. “You know, hygiene! We don’t have it. We sleep in basements, on mattresses with rats running around.”
    He and his men insisted that they want to return to the front.
    “We’re ready to fight and we will keep on fighting,” Lapko said. “We will protect every meter of our country — but with adequate commandments and without unrealistic orders. I took an oath of allegiance to the Ukrainian people. We’re protecting Ukraine and we won’t let anyone in as long as we’re alive.”
    But on Monday, Ukraine’s military security services arrived at the hotel and took Khrus and other members of his platoon to a detention center for two days, accusing them of desertion. Lapko was stripped of his command, according to an order reviewed by The Post. He is being held at the base in Lysychansk, his future uncertain.
    Reached by phone Wednesday, he said two more of his men had been wounded on the front line.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/26/ukraine-frontline-russia-military-severodonetsk/
     
    Navodno je ukrajinski DB već uhapsio dvojicu sagovornika WaPosta, Lapka i Hrusa, koji su govorili o realnom stanju na frontu.
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sat May 28, 2022 12:53 pm


    Russian Wins in Eastern Ukraine Spark Debate Over Course of War
    (...)
    Ukrainian military spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanyk described the change in the Russian approach to the war as “colossal” at a briefing this week. Russian commanders now take fewer risks and ensure better air cover as they pursue scorched earth tactics. That increasingly entails leveling Ukrainian defenses with extended artillery barrages before attempting to secure territory.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-27/russian-wins-in-eastern-ukraine-spark-debate-over-course-of-war
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat May 28, 2022 2:02 pm

    Skrenuo bih paznju na lazan narativ koji se pojavljuje na zapadu. Rusija nije trazila nikakvu teritoriju od Ukrajine. Trazila je da postuju ljucka prava stanovnika Dombasa i drugih rusojezicnih ljudi sirom Ukrajine, kao i da se postuju potpisani ugovori i medjudrzavni dogovori. Ukrajina je ta koja je stalno potezala pitanje teritorija, insistirajuci na principima 16-vekovne politike. Sada kada je Rusija krenula u vojnu intervenciju to i dalje nije pitanje teritorija, vec moze li se verovati vladajucim elitama Ukrajine, a kako je odgovor odrican, cenim da je ruski ugao da ce rat da traje dok se ne uspostavi rezim kome se moze verovati, ili dok ovakva varvarska ukrajinska drzava prestane da postoji.
    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Sat May 28, 2022 2:11 pm

    Zanimljivo ako je tačno



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      Sweet and Tender Hooligan  
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 2:14 pm

    Ako je ruski cilj uspostavljanje marionetskog rezima u Kijevu - nacekacemo se dok se ne zavrsi rat.

    Izvestaj OEBS - bilo bi lepo videti original.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat May 28, 2022 2:22 pm

    Ako im je nesto cilj, ne znaci da ce ga ostvariti ili da ce ici do maksimalnog cilja. Mozda im je skroz ok da imaju nato marionetu na granicama kojom upravlja bezbednosno-tajkunska hunta na celu sa Orestovicem, dakle demokratiju tako reci...
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sat May 28, 2022 2:26 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:Ako je ruski cilj uspostavljanje marionetskog rezima u Kijevu - nacekacemo se dok se ne zavrsi rat.

    Izvestaj OEBS - bilo bi lepo videti original.

    Meni je ovaj tajmlajn zanimljiv pošto apstrahuje činjenicu da je napad na Ukrajinu 15. februara bio potpuno spreman, da su Rusi već imali i poljske bolnice na pozadinskim položajima. Dakle - 15. februara zeke, mede, deca igraju pod dugom na Unicefovoj čestitki, i onda, just like that što kaže Forest Gamp, Kijev naredi napad na Donbas i jadna Rusija, šta će, mora da reaguje.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 2:31 pm

    Filipenko wrote:Ako im je nesto cilj, ne znaci da ce ga ostvariti ili da ce ici do maksimalnog cilja. Mozda im je skroz ok da imaju nato marionetu na granicama kojom upravlja bezbednosno-tajkunska hunta na celu sa Orestovicem, dakle demokratiju tako reci...

    Da, ali sta ce onda ostvariti? Teritoriju. Jer nesto - mora, ako ne misle da izgube rat (a mozda time i vlast)
    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Sat May 28, 2022 2:35 pm

    pa dobro, nije to sad neka mudrost pronaći...

    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-16%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-17%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-18%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-19%20Daily%20Report.pdf
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-20-21%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-22%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf

    edit: nisam čitao izveštaje


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    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Sat May 28, 2022 2:45 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:
    Mór Thököly wrote:Ako je ruski cilj uspostavljanje marionetskog rezima u Kijevu - nacekacemo se dok se ne zavrsi rat.

    Izvestaj OEBS - bilo bi lepo videti original.

    Meni je ovaj tajmlajn zanimljiv pošto apstrahuje činjenicu da je napad na Ukrajinu 15. februara bio potpuno spreman, da su Rusi već imali i poljske bolnice na pozadinskim položajima. Dakle - 15. februara zeke, mede, deca igraju pod dugom na Unicefovoj čestitki, i onda, just like that što kaže Forest Gamp, Kijev naredi napad na Donbas i jadna Rusija, šta će, mora da reaguje.


    Meni ovaj profil baš uliva poverenje.

    Spoiler:


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    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sat May 28, 2022 2:46 pm

    Za 22. februar:

    In Donetsk region, the SMM recorded 703 ceasefire violations, including 332 explosions (five airbursts, eight impacts and 319 undetermined). The majority of ceasefire violations were recorded in areas south-west, west, and west-north-west of Horlivka (non-government controlled, 39km north-east of Donetsk), in areas north, north-north-east, and north-northwest of Shyrokyne (government-controlled, 100km south of Donetsk), and inside and close to the disengagement area near Petrivske (non-government-controlled, 41km south of Donetsk). In the previous 24 hours, the Mission recorded 579 ceasefire violations in the region, some of which also occurred near Shyrokyne.

    In Luhansk region, the SMM recorded 1,224 ceasefire violations, including 1,149 explosions (108 outgoing, 103 impacts and 938 undetermined). The majority of ceasefire violations were recorded inside and close to the disengagement area near Stanytsia Luhanska (government controlled, 16km north-east of Luhansk), in areas north, west, west-north-west, and northwest of non-government-controlled Luhansk city, and in areas close to the disengagement area near Zolote (government-controlled, 60km west of Luhansk). In the previous 24 hours, the SMM recorded 333 ceasefire violations in the region, the majority of which also occurred near the disengagement areas near Stanytsia Luhanska and Zolote.
    https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-22%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf

    Od 3+3 spomenuta područja, 3 su bila pobunjenička, a 3 pod kontrolom države.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 2:50 pm

    Hvala.

    What Rumby said.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat May 28, 2022 2:53 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    Filipenko wrote:Ako im je nesto cilj, ne znaci da ce ga ostvariti ili da ce ici do maksimalnog cilja. Mozda im je skroz ok da imaju nato marionetu na granicama kojom upravlja bezbednosno-tajkunska hunta na celu sa Orestovicem, dakle demokratiju tako reci...

    Da, ali sta ce onda ostvariti? Teritoriju. Jer nesto - mora, ako ne misle da izgube rat (a mozda time i vlast)


    Branis vrednosti i stitis ljudska prava, a sa teritorijama ce se desiti sto ce se desiti, sve je moguce.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat May 28, 2022 3:01 pm

    Tako generalno ne izgledaju planovi
    plachkica

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    Post by plachkica Sat May 28, 2022 5:53 pm

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