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    Kapitalizam 101

    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:31 pm

    TO REDUCE WAGES, LENGTHEN THE WORKING DAY, WEAKEN THE PROLETARIAT AND SMASH ITS ORGANISATIONS — SUCH ARE THE OBJECTS OF THE GENERAL ASSOCIATION OF CAPITALISTS.

     - J.V. STALIN, THE CLASS STRUGGLE (1906)



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    Korisnik
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    Post by ontheotherhand Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:53 pm

    I to izjavi čovek čija je državna birokratija imalu ulogu ekvivalentnoj kapitaliste na mrskom zapadu.  Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 1844795956
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:20 pm

    Šta bi tek rekao na stavove o ličnoj slobodi  Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 29297947




    IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO IMAGINE WHAT “PERSONAL LIBERTY” IS ENJOYED BY AN UNEMPLOYED HUNGRY PERSON. TRUE FREEDOM CAN ONLY BE WHERE THERE IS NO EXPLOITATION AND OPPRESSION OF ONE PERSON BY ANOTHER; WHERE THERE IS NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, AND WHERE A PERSON IS NOT LIVING IN FEAR OF LOSING HIS JOB, HIS HOME AND HIS BREAD. ONLY IN SUCH A SOCIETY PERSONAL AND ANY OTHER FREEDOM CAN EXIST FOR REAL AND NOT ON PAPER.

     - INTERVIEW BETWEEN I.V. STALIN AND ROY HOWARD (PRESIDENT OF SCRIPPS-HOWARD NEWSPAPERS), MARCH 1ST, 1936.
    (VIA STALINSOCIETY)



    Striktno posmatrano, ovako sam i ja libertarijanac.  Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 29297947
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:55 pm

    Колико је беше милиона помрло од глади под другом Стаљином?


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    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:13 pm

    Pravo pitanje je koliko bi ih pomrlo da nije bilo Staljina?  Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 29297947
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    Korisnik
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    Post by ontheotherhand Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:52 pm

    Ruski proleter je dobio 2SR. Sad kolika je tu zasluga Staljina i kako bi bilo da je na njegovom mestu bio neko drugi, ne znam. Možda bi danas živeli stvarnu verziju Čoveka u visokom dvorcu.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:54 pm

    Filipenko wrote:Pravo pitanje je koliko bi ih pomrlo da nije bilo Staljina?  Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 29297947
    Не знам како би ти то израчунао, али можда би помогла чињеница да је у подужој историји Украјине незабележена слична глад? Чак су јој и име дали, Холодомор.
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    Post by паће Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:58 pm

    А шта, не зове се украјински холокауст?


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    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:10 pm

    Ту има нека шала...?


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    Post by Filipenko Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:22 pm

    No Country wrote:у подужој историји Украјине


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    Post by паће Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:38 pm

    No Country wrote:Ту има нека шала...?

    Мислим да су јако озбиљни и они што су хтели да се то тако зове и они који нису дозволили. Но аргументацију сам заборавио па не бих да лупам напамет. У ствари мислим да се не сећам тачно ни ко је све учествовао. Те ако неко зна.


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    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:47 pm

    Зна гугла. По бројкама је сасвим упоредиво, геноцидну намеру је већ много теже доказати. Извини, мислио сам да правиш некакву пошалицу.


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    Post by паће Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:50 pm

    Ма покушао сам да заголицам зналце да изађу са нешто више чињеница о том делу око званичног назива. То што сам ја пре десет година прочитао на интернету (тадашњи интерћубс) је однела вода, све и да сам сачувао линке иструлели би досад. Дакле зазивао сам 1 освежишку памћења, кад се већ реч поново појавила.


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    Post by Guest Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:59 pm

    No Country wrote:Зна гугла. По бројкама је сасвим упоредиво, геноцидну намеру је већ много теже доказати. Извини, мислио сам да правиш некакву пошалицу.

    Niko nije rekao "ajde da poubijamo Ukrajince", prosto nema genocidne namere. Sovjetska politika i ideologija (pogotovo u predratnom vremenom) u razmatranju nacionalnih pitanja i tema prosto nisu baratali takvim kategorijalnim aparatom koji bi postavio genocid kao cilj.

    Stvari počinju, manje-više, ovako:


    James‏ @historyboy77  6. јул 2015.
    (1) #Holodomor On this day 1932, Kaganovich & Molotov sent a pair of telegrams to Stalin asking for his opinion about proposed plans for
    (2) grain procurement in Ukraine
    and also covering up the real state of affairs in the Ukrainian SSR, because they knew that if the famine
    (3) received any sort of wide scale coverage, especially from foreign press, than it would discredit the USSR in a propaganda war w the west
    (4) Stalin's reply was a resolution demanding "unconditional fulfillment" of extracting 356 m poods of grain from out of the Ukr countryside
    (5) Stalin also agreed that covering up the #Holodomor was a good idea, & also to target Ukr communists who advocated reducing grain quotas
    (6) such as Mykola Skrypnyk, who was also an advocate of Ukranianization. Exactly one year and a day later Skrypnyk would be dead.
    (7) "supposedly" Skrypnyk "commited suicide" by "self-inflicted gunshot wound" after having been accused of "promoting nationalism"


    Mislim počinju pre toga u logici kolektivizacije i brojki, u logici silnog centra moći i mentalnom dominacijom državnog plana nad stanjem na terenu, a raskorak želja i realnosti je "smanjen" na štetu prvo realnosti a onda potom i želja (pošto ni pored ludovanja planovi nisu ostvareni).
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:07 am

    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 37406781797c9a9568acf2df65e6474f
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    Post by Guest Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:17 am

    Oleg Hlevnjuk kaže ovako:



     Forced collectivization and ineffective industrialization dealt the coun-
    try a blow from which it never fully recovered. In 1930–1932, hundreds of
    thousands of “wreckers” and “kulaks” were shot or imprisoned in camps,
    and more than 2 million kulaks and their family members were sent into
    exile.
    26 Many of those exiled were just as doomed as those who were shot.
    Kulak families were sent to live in barracks not suitable for habitation and
    sometimes simply dropped off in open fields. Terrible living conditions,
    backbreaking labor, and hunger brought on mass fatalities, especially
    among children.27

     The situation for peasants who were not arrested or exiled was hardly
    better. The Soviet village, ravaged by collectivization, was seriously de-
    graded. Agricultural production plummeted, and the livestock sector was
    hit hard. Between 1928 and 1933 the number of horses dropped from 32 mil-
    lion to 17 million, heads of cattle fell from 60 million to 33 million and pigs from 22 million to 10 million.
    28 Despite such declining productivity, the state pumped an ever-growing share of its yield out of the countryside. And yet throughout the Soviet period, the kolkhozes were unable to adequately
    feed the country. Most Soviet citizens survived on meager rations. Many
    periods were marked by famine. One of the worst was the famine of 1931–
    1933, the predictable result of Stalin’s Great Leap.

    Famine

     When the time arrived to announce the results of the First Five-
    Year Plan, Stalin had to be creative. Exercising the privilege of power, he
    did not cite a single actual figure but simply proclaimed that the emperor
    was indeed wearing clothes. The Five-Year Plan, he said, had been fulfilled
    ahead of schedule!29 Of course the investment of vast resources and tons of
    equipment purchased from the West did yield results. Many modern fac-
    tories were built, and industrial production did increase significantly. But
    there was no miracle. The unachievable five-year targets were, predictably,
    not achieved. The actual production figures were not even close: 6.2 mil-
    lion metric tons of cast iron in 1932 instead of the desired 17 million; 21.4
    million tons of petroleum instead of 45 million; 48,900 tractors instead of
    170,000; 23,900 automobiles instead of 200,000.30 The state of consumer
    goods manufacturing was particularly lamentable.

    But the main problem with the First Five-Year Plan was that it estab-
    lished a ruinously inefficient approach to industrialization. Vast sums and
    resources were poured into undertaking construction that was never com-
    pleted; into equipment for which no use was ever found, purchased from
    abroad out of Soviet gold reserves; into wasteful redesigns, the inevitable
    result of excessive haste; and into goods so poorly produced as to be un-
    usable. The task of arriving at an approximation of these losses rests with
    historians. Much better known are the statistics from another tragic result
    of the Great Leap—the toll taken by the Great Famine.

     This famine, which reached its peak over the winter of 1932–1933, took
    the lives of between 5 million and 7 million people.
    31 Millions more were
    permanently disabled. In a time of peace and relatively normal weather,
    agriculturally rich regions were ruined and desolated. Although the famine
    was a complex phenomenon, posterity has every right to call it the Stalin
    Famine. The Stalinist policy of the Great Leap was its primary cause; more-
    over, it was Stalin’s decisions in 1932 and 1933 that, instead of easing the
    tragedy, made it worse.


     The famine was the inevitable result of industrialization and collectiviza-
    tion. From a productivity standpoint, the kolkhozes were a poor substitute
    for the destroyed farms of those who had been branded “kulaks.” The only
    advantage of the kolkhozes was that they gave the state a convenient means
    of channeling resources out of the countryside. The exceptional exploita-
    tion of peasants had two effects: agricultural workers were physically weak-
    ened by hunger, and they were deprived of any incentive to work, leading to
    despondency and apathy.
    They knew in advance that everything they grew
    would be taken by the state, dooming them, at best, to semi-starvation.
    Several years of this policy led to a gradual decline in output. In 1932 the
    crops did not grow well and were also poorly harvested.

     The state’s interests and those of the peasants were diametrically op-
    posed. The state was extremely aggressive in taking from the countryside as
    many resources as possible. The peasants, like famine victims all over the
    world, used “the weapons of the weak.”32 They sabotaged the fulfillment of
    their obligations to the state and tried to stash away stores to feed them-
    selves. Stalin was well aware of the hostility of the forcibly collectivized
    countryside, but he placed the blame fully on the peasants’ shoulders. They
    had declared war, he proclaimed, against the Soviet government.


     The looming crisis was obvious to everyone, including Stalin, long be-
    fore the famine entered its most critical phase. There were obvious steps
    that, if they did not prevent the famine altogether, could at least have di-
    minished its impact. The first would have been to establish set norms for
    grain deliveries to the state—in other words, a move from a system of con-
    fiscation to a system of taxes. This step would have given the peasants an
    incentive to boost production. Stalin, however, rejected this approach.
    33
    He preferred to take as much as possible from the countryside without any
    constraints. Another step to alleviate the famine might have been to reduce
    grain exports or even buy grain abroad. Such purchases were made on a
    limited basis during the spring of 1932, so they were in principle possible.34
    But Stalin refused to make further purchases. Any concessions that hinted
    at the misguidedness of the Great Leap were contrary to his nature and po-
    litically dangerous to his dictatorship. To alleviate the pressure on the peas-
    ants there would have to be a reduction in the pace of industrial growth.
    Reluctantly, Stalin did agree to such a reduction in 1933, but his slowness to
    take action cost millions of lives.

     By the autumn of 1932, critical delays, stubbornness, and cruelty had
    led Stalin himself into a dead end. No good options remained. The har-
    vest produced by the devastated countryside in 1932 was even worse than
    the poor harvest of 1931. Meanwhile, industrialization continued apace,
    and the Soviet Union’s foreign debt for purchases of equipment and raw
    materials reached new heights. Given these circumstances, there was only
    a little room to maneuver. The government could mobilize all available
    resources, or dip into reserves, or appeal for international aid, as the Bol-
    sheviks had done during the famine of 1921–1922.35 These measures came
    with economic and political costs, but they were possible. Stalin probably
    did not even consider them. Instead, the state intensified pressure on the
    countryside.

     Documents discovered in recent years paint a horrific picture. All food
    supplies were taken away from the starving peasants—not only grain, but
    also vegetables, meat, and dairy products. Teams of marauders, made up of
    local officials and activists from the cities, hunted down hidden supplies—
    so-called yamas (holes in the ground), where peasants, in accordance with
    age-old tradition, kept grain as a sort of insurance against famine. Hungry
    peasants were tortured to reveal these yamas and other food stores, their
    families’ only safeguard against death. They were beaten, forced out into
    sub-freezing temperatures without clothing, arrested, or exiled to Siberia.
    Attempts by peasants dying of hunger to flee to better-off regions were ruth-
    lessly suppressed. Refugees were forced to return to their villages, doomed
    to slowly perish, or be arrested. By mid-1933 some 2.5 million people were
    in labor camps, prisons, or exile
    .36 Many of them fared better than those
    who starved to death “in freedom.”

     At its peak in late 1932 and early 1933, the famine afflicted an area pop-
    ulated by more than 70 million people: Ukraine, the North Caucasus, Ka-
    zakhstan, and some Russian provinces. This does not mean that the remain-
    ing Soviet population of 160 million was eating normally. Many in regions
    not officially in a state of famine lived on the edge of starvation. The entire country was hit by epidemics, primarily typhus. Millions suffered serious illnesses, were left disabled, or died several years after the famine from the damage it had inflicted on their bodies.
    And no statistics can measure the moral degradation it caused. Secret OGPU and party summaries (svodkas), especially during the early months of 1933, are filled with accounts of wide-spread cannibalism. Mothers murdered their children, and deranged activists robbed and tormented the population.

     While the entire country suffered from famine and mass repression,
    Ukraine and the North Caucasus were the most affected.37 It was in these
    two important regions of the USSR where the policy of punishing grain
    requisitions and terror were most brutally applied. Two interrelated rea-
    sons explain Stalin’s focus on these areas. The first could be described as
    economic.
    Ukraine and the North Caucasus supplied as much as half of
    all grain collected by the state. But in 1932–1933 they turned over 40 per-
    cent less than the previous year. While this decline was partially compen-
    sated by Russian grain-producing areas, which despite going hungry had
    significantly overfulfilled their plans, they could not completely make up
    the shortfall. In 1932 the state collected almost 20 percent less grain than in 1931.38 These figures partially explain the demands Stalin placed on Ukraine and the North Caucasus. He wanted “his” grain and was infuriated that
    they were not providing it.

     Second, Stalin saw the crisis of 1932 as the continuation of the war against
    the peasantry and as a means of consolidating the results of collectiviza-
    tion, and he had a point
    . In a letter to the Soviet writer Mikhail Sholok-
    hov on 6 May 1933, he wrote: “The esteemed grain growers were in essence  
    waging a ‘quiet’ war against Soviet power. A war by starvation.”39 He un-
    doubtedly considered the peasantry of Ukraine and the North Caucasus
    to be at the forefront of this peasant army battling the Soviet government.

    These regions had always been hotbeds of anti-Soviet sentiment, and
    Ukraine had been at the forefront of the anti-kolkhoz movement in 1930.

    Repeated incidents of unrest flared up in both Ukraine and the North Cau-
    casus in 1931–1932. A further cause for concern was Ukraine’s border with
    Poland. Stalin feared that Poland, in its hostility toward the USSR, could ex-
    ploit the Ukrainian crisis
    .40 Overall, as Hiroaki Kuromiya points out, Stalin
    was suspicious of all peasants, but “Ukrainian peasants were doubly sus-
    pect both for being peasants and for being Ukrainian.”41

     By proclaiming grain collection to be a war, Stalin was untying his own
    hands and the hands of those carrying out his orders. The ideological basis
    for this war was the Stalinist myth that “food difficulties” resulted from acts of sabotage by “enemies” and “kulaks.” Any suggestion of a link between
    the crisis and government policy was categorically rejected.
    By blaming all
    food shortages on “enemies” and on the peasants themselves while also
    promoting the idea that the scale of the famine was being maliciously ex-
    aggerated, Stalin relieved himself and the central government of any obli-
    gation to help the hungry. A statement by the general secretary in February
    1933 at a congress of kolkhoz shock workers shows the depth of his cyni-
    cism: “One of our achievements is that the vast masses of the poor peas-
    ants, who formerly lived in semi-starvation, have now, in the collective
    farms, become middle peasants, have attained material security. . . . It is
    an achievement such as has never been known in the world before, such as
    no other state in the world has yet made.”42 This statement came at a time
    when thousands were dying every day.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:52 am

    Океј, сада да се вратимо на почетну мисао друга Кобе по којој "гладан човек не може да буде слободан"... и чему нас учи ова кратка али зато изузетно одвратна историјска епизода? Човек није био само психопата, такође је био и лицемер и лажов.


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    Post by boomer crook Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:13 am

    mislim britanski trial and error pristup kolonijalnoj vlasti je pobio desetine miliona u indiji i irskoj tokom XIX veka. kod staljina je lakse posto ima ime covek i sve se vezuje za njega.


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
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    Post by Guest Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:21 am

    Filipovo luđenje na stranu, ja sam počeo da mrzim potezanje Staljina kao modela, hmm, anti-kapitalizma tj komunizma kao takvog (pošto je i to postojalo u više varijacija, ili nije postojalo nego se iz socijalizma kretalo ka komunizmu u više puteva).

    Da, Staljin je bio diktator, čovek bez ljudske empatije, zločinac u miru i ratu, hladni kalkulant. Pored toga bio je i komunista. On je negde vanredni egzemplar šta sve takav poredak može kada hoće, ali sa druge strane komunista je bio i Gorbačov, na kraju krajeva i Kardelj je bio komunista. Tj neće svako da luduje u datim ideološkim koordinatama, ili nije Staljin sva istina komunizma.

    Ne slažem se sa ekonomskom definicijom slobode, ona je preuska, jer i gladni ljudi mogu biti i slobodni i neslobodni, 20. i 21. vek su dovoljno dokaza pružili za tako nešto. To je prosto besmislena tvrdnja cinika koji je oduzeo korpus političkih sloboda a onda, u par navrata, oduzimao i hranu tj stvarao glad.
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    Post by паће Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:33 am

    Gargantua wrote:Filipovo luđenje na stranu, ja sam počeo da mrzim potezanje Staljina kao modela, hmm, anti-kapitalizma tj komunizma kao takvog (pošto je i to postojalo u više varijacija, ili nije postojalo nego se iz socijalizma kretalo ka komunizmu u više puteva).

    Е па не може пораз да се претвара у победу тек тако. Где ти је издавачка машинерија, камо светска дистрибуција, плаћени тинк тенкови? Ти би сад свођење социјализма на Стаљина да ревидираш и да се размахујеш некаквом историјом која се стварно десила? Изволи, али где ћеш то да објавиш и ко ће то да чита? То се десило пре интернета, дакле не постоји осим у облику нових чланака, које пишу људи који имају слободног времена, или им је то посао. Ти којима је то посао пишу оно за шта су плаћени... дакле ко ће да им плати да пишу о социјализмима какви су били? То је компликовано. Кажеш Стаљин, то ће сви разумети и стане у 160.

    То није стихија, то је концентрована и кондензована пропаганда, коју слушамо чак и овде, из домаћих извора (сад да ли су неки чак и плаћени или само папагајишу не би ли се домогли сисе) - социјализам једнако стаљинизам, а овдашњи тајкуни су богатство стекли пљачкајући онај велики минус који је остао иза самоуправљања, којег такође није било. Прелистај историју Бурундија и Пепепеја, наћи ћеш обиље прилика кад су нас што се сећамо убеђивали да се лоше сећамо.

    Али, ајде да ни не покушавамо да причу раширимо са 160 знакова на дугу причу о цветању сто цветова, него да покушамо да одиграмо ту исту редукцију на другој рингли: да свако помињање хришћанства сведемо на инквизицију и свако помињање капитализма сведемо на колонијализам. Пошто редукција увек лакше пролази него богата прича, да видимо докле би се с тим допрло.


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       commented, fermented, demented, mementoed, cemented, lamented.
       анархеологистика: оно кад не знаш где си га затурио, и кад.
    Bluberi

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    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

    Post by Bluberi Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:36 am

    Po ko zna koji put, Buden.

    “Staljinizam” je danas povijesno potrošen pojam. Svojedobno je odigrao ključnu ulogu u razvoju onoga što zovemo historijskim komunizmom, dakle ideologijom i političkom praksom komunističkog pokreta od njegovih povijesnih početaka u devetnaestom stoljeću, do njegova sloma u takozvanim demokratskim revolucijama 1989/90. godine. “Staljinizam” je pojam njegove unutarnje dinamike, historijske, ideološke i frakcijske diferencijacije.
    U liku staljinizma, komunistički pokret je otkrio svoju imanentnu negaciju od koje se ne samo pokušao historijski razgraničiti i udaljiti kao od epohe svoje devijacije i dekadencije, nego je upravo u toj negaciji svoje negacije, u razgraničenju od staljinizma, potražio šansu svoje imanentne obnove. Bez pojma staljinizma nemoguće je razumjeti jugoslavenski slučaj, posebni jugoslavenski put u socijalizam, Titoizam, politiku nesvrstavanja, samoupravljanje, uključujući i neponovljiva dostignuća kulturne proizvodnje, pa i poseban jugoslavenski vid disidentstva, onu danas zaboravljenu lijevu, demokratsku kritiku totalitarnih praksi jugoslavenskog socijalističkog sistema. U negaciji staljinizma nije samojugoslavenski komunistički pokret ponovo otkrio svoju autentičnu demokratsku i emancipacijsku legitimaciju koju je naslijedio iz razdoblja antifašističke borbe i socijalne revolucije, svoje pravo na posebnost, na politički, ideološki i historijski eksperiment; i njegovi kritičari, unutarpartijski i izvanpartijski, otvoreni negatori njegova birokratskog, totalitarnog izopačenja, kulta ličnosti na koji se oslanjao kao invalid na štaku, borci za slobodu umjetničkog stvaranja, kulturnog i intelektualnog rada, oni također našli su svoju legitimaciju u otvorenoj negacijistaljinizma.
    Bez pojma staljinizma, jugoslavenska prošlost nema nikakva smisla. S takozvanim padom komunizma, ova unutarnja diferencijacija komunističkog pokreta postala je irelevantna. Pojam staljinizma izgubio je svaku uporabnu vrijednost, svaku konkretnu referencijalnost. Postao je prazan i suvišan. Prošlost se ukazala u svojoj trivijalnoj jednoobraznosti, jednoznačnosti i prozirnosti, ili, što je isto, u svojoj ahistoričnosti i apolitičnosti. Čak i ona najbanalnija razlika između socijalizma i komunizma, razlika nekad bjelodano jasna svakom pučkoškolcu bivših socijalističkih zemalja, kao razlika između ideje same, komunizma, i njezine konkretne historijske realizacije, socijalizma kao posebnog društvenog uređenja, političkog sistema, oblika vlasništva, itd., izgubila je nakon 1989/90. godine svako značenje. Sve, bez razlike, zaokruženo je pojmom komunizma da bi kao takvo bilo bačeno u ropotarnicu povijesti. Tako je, već na nominalnoj razini, izbrisano golemo iskustvo društvenih sukoba, frakcijskih borbi, otvorenih međudržavnih konflikata koji su uključivali i prave ratove, kao i iskustvo teških ideoloških i kulturnih sporova, ukratko, čitava politička dinamika historijskog komunizma. 
    Pojam komunizma danas implicira zaborav pojma staljinizma. Ali, ni on sam nije dugo odolijevao zaboravu. Uskoro ga je progutao pojam totalitarizma. Sada je i razlika između komunizma i fašizma postala irelevantna. Kao što je i iskustvo sukoba između ta “dva oblika totalitarizma” postalo historijski beznačajno i bezvrijedno. Svi oni pusti milijuni ljudi izginuli u sukobu na život i smrt između tih dviju ideologija i političkih pokreta, u njihovu međusobnom ratu do istrebljenja, danas nam se ukazuju kao slučajne žrtve jedne zabune, tragičnog nesporazuma među prijateljima, braćom, kao nesretni stradalnici jednog u osnovi bratoubilačkog rata.
    U ovoj pojmovnoj transformaciji mnogi vide napredak u svijesti o pravoj istini prošlosti. Jedino, međutim, što je napredovalo na putu od staljinizma preko komunizma do totalitarizma je zaborav.
    Anonymous
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    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

    Post by Guest Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:53 am

    Msm ja ne volim marksizam zato što je radna teorija vrednosti koja stoji u temelju toga (a onako kako ju je Marks preuzeo od Rikarda) prosto pogrešna, suviše rigidna ali uz to suviše sveobuhvatna da bi bila temeljni princip društvene organizacije.

    Takođe mislim da je jasno da je Lange poražen u debati oko računanja cena u komunizmu, i da to pitanje sistem (ili nekoliko komunističkih sistema) nikada nije uspeo da u praksi reši. Ne znam gde bih stavio Kinu, državni kapitalizam sa primesama komunizma, najpre.

    Staljin (kao politčar i kao ekstrem) je u tim temama potpuno irelevantna pojava.

    A ne vidim da su ovi problemi pobrojani gore na ikakav način prevaziđeni (idejno, teorijski) da bismo dalje raspravljali o tome.
    Anonymous
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    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

    Post by Guest Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:53 am

    Hoću da kažem da socijalizam/komunizam ima ozbiljnijih problema od optužbi za staljinizam.
    boomer crook

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    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

    Post by boomer crook Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:01 am

    osim sto sam marks nikada nije bio rigidni pobornik radne teorije vrednosti te je stalno napominjao da se radu ne sme davati neka magicna moc.


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Bluberi

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    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

    Post by Bluberi Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:05 am

    Gargantua wrote:Hoću da kažem da socijalizam/komunizam ima ozbiljnijih problema od optužbi za staljinizam.
    Nisam siguran, jer iza optužbe za staljinizam se nalazi optužba da je socializam-komunizam nespojiv sa demokratijom.

    Kapitalizam 101 - Page 14 Empty Re: Kapitalizam 101

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