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    Rat u Ukrajini

    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:06 pm

    Del Cap wrote:Ne mislim da je ovo ponuda koja je smišljena da bude baš ozbiljno razmatrana tamo(tm) gde se odlučuje. Plasirana je pre ove mirovne konfe u Švajcarskoj, taman da im nabaci temu za razmišljanje i da mnoge zemlje koje nisu posebno zainteresovane za taj rat pitaju Ukrajince "jeste li razmišljali", "šta vam tačno smeta" itd, da potroše vreme na to.


    Da, trol švicerske mirovne konferencije, i to kvalitetan.



    A total of 57 of the 160 invited


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    Međuopštinski pustolov.

    Zli stolar.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:56 pm

    Pratimo Mađarsku u stopu (doduse i Rumuniju)
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:44 pm



    _____
    Međuopštinski pustolov.

    Zli stolar.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Jun 25, 2024 1:44 pm

    Međunarodni krivični sud izdao je nalog za hapšenje bivšeg ruskog ministra odbrane Sergeja Šojgua i načelnika Generalštaba ruske vojske Valerija Gerasimova.

    Nalozi za njihovo hapšenje izdati su, kako prenosi CNN, zbog navodnih međunarodnih zločina, ratnih zločina i zločina protiv čovečnosti.

    Ova dva naloga povećavaju ukupan broj najviših ruskih zvaničnika za ratnim zločinima na četiri, pošto je MKS ranije izdao naloge za hapšenje predsednika Vladimira Putina i ruskog zvaničnika Marije Lvove-Belove zbog navodne šeme deportovanja ukrajinske dece u Rusiju.

    Rusija, s druge strane, nije potpisnica tzv. Rimskog statuta što znači da odluke MKS za nju nisu pravno obavezujuće.
    паће

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    Post by паће Tue Jun 25, 2024 1:46 pm

    Уочио сам јасну поделу, и наводни најебавају од такозваних бар 2:1.


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       What is it before it is called a day? Why do people try to call my name and not me?
       чланак садржи негативну количину информације, прочиташ па знаш мање него пре.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Wed Jun 26, 2024 10:40 am

    Exclusive: Trump handed plan to halt US military aid to Kyiv unless it talks peace with Moscow
    By Gram Slattery and Simon Lewis


    June 25, 20246:41 PM GMT+2Updated 6 hours ago


    WASHINGTON, June 25 (Reuters) - Two key advisers to Donald Trump have presented him with a plan to end Russia's war in Ukraine - if he wins the Nov. 5 presidential election - that involves telling Ukraine it will only get more U.S. weapons if it enters peace talks.
    The United States would at the same time warn Moscow that any refusal to negotiate would result in increased U.S. support for Ukraine, retired Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg, one of Trump's national security advisers, said in an interview.

    Under the plan drawn up by Kellogg and Fred Fleitz, who both served as chiefs of staff in Trump's National Security Council during his 2017-2021 presidency, there would be a ceasefire based on prevailing battle lines during peace talks, Fleitz said.
    They have presented their strategy to Trump, and the Republican presidential candidate responded favorably, Fleitz added. "I'm not claiming he agreed with it or agreed with every word of it, but we were pleased to get the feedback we did," he said.

    Trump spokesperson Steven Cheung said only statements made by Trump or authorized members of his campaign should be deemed official.

    The strategy outlined by Kellogg and Fleitz is the most detailed plan yet by associates of Trump, who has said he could quickly settle the war in Ukraine if he beats President Joe Biden in the Nov. 5 election, though he has not said how he would do that.
    The proposal would mark a big shift in the U.S. position on the war and would face opposition from European allies and within Trump's own Republican Party.

    The Kremlin said any peace plan proposed by a possible future Trump administration would have to reflect the reality on the ground but that Russian President Vladimir Putin remained open to talks.
    "The value of any plan lies in the nuances and in taking into account the real state of affairs on the ground," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters.
    "President Putin has repeatedly said that Russia has been and remains open to negotiations, taking into account the real state of affairs on the ground," he said.

    Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said on Tuesday that freezing hostilities at the prevailing front lines would be "strange," given Russia had violated international law by invading Ukraine.

    "Ukraine has an absolutely clear understanding and it is spelled out in the peace formula proposed by President (Volodymyr) Zelenskiy, it is clearly stated there - peace can only be fair and peace can only be based on international law," he told Reuters.

    The White House National Security Council said the Biden administration would not force Ukraine into negotiations with Russia.
    "President Biden believes that any decisions about negotiations are up to Ukraine," said NSC spokesperson Adrienne Watson.

    NATO MEMBERSHIP ON HOLD

    The core elements of the plan were outlined in a publicly available research paper, published by the "America First Policy Institute," a Trump-friendly think tank where Kellogg and Fleitz hold leadership positions.

    Kellogg said it would be crucial to get Russia and Ukraine to the negotiating table quickly if Trump wins the election.
    "We tell the Ukrainians, 'You've got to come to the table, and if you don't come to the table, support from the United States will dry up,'" he said. "And you tell Putin, 'He's got to come to the table and if you don't come to the table, then we'll give Ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field.'"
    According to their research paper, Moscow would also be coaxed to the table with the promise of NATO membership for Ukraine being put off for an extended period.

    Russia invaded neighboring Ukraine in February 2022. Until some gains by Russia in recent months, the front lines barely moved since the end of that year, despite tens of thousands of dead on both sides in relentless trench warfare, the bloodiest fighting in Europe since World War Two.

    Fleitz said Ukraine need not formally cede territory to Russia under their plan. Still, he said, Ukraine was unlikely to regain effective control of all its territory in the near term.

    "Our concern is that this has become a war of attrition that's going to kill a whole generation of young men," he said.
    A lasting peace in Ukraine would require additional security guarantees for Ukraine, Kellogg and Fleitz said. Fleitz added that "arming Ukraine to the teeth" was likely to be a key element of that.

    "President Trump has repeatedly stated that a top priority in his second term will be to quickly negotiate an end to the Russia-Ukraine war," Trump spokesperson Cheung said.
    Biden campaign spokesperson James Singer said Trump is not interested in standing up to Putin or defending democracy.

    UPPER HAND

    Some Republicans will be reticent to pay for more resources to Ukraine under the plan. The U.S. has spent more than $70 billion on military aid for Ukraine since Moscow's invasion.
    "What (Trump's supporters) want to do is reduce aid, if not turn off the spigot," said Charles Kupchan, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

    Putin said this month that the war could end if Ukraine agreed to drop its ambitions to join NATO and hand over four eastern and southern provinces claimed by Russia.

    During a meeting of the United Nations Security Council last week, French and British ambassadors reiterated their view that peace can only be sought when Russia withdraws from Ukrainian territory, a position Kyiv shares.
    Several analysts also expressed concern that the plan by Kellogg and Fleitz could give Moscow the upper hand in talks.

    "What Kellogg is describing is a process slanted toward Ukraine giving up all of the territory that Russia now occupies," said Daniel Fried, a former assistant secretary of state who worked on Russia policy.
    During a podcast interview last week, Trump ruled out committing U.S. troops to Ukraine and appeared skeptical of making Ukraine a NATO member. He has indicated he would quickly move to cut aid to Kyiv if elected.
    Biden has consistently pushed for more Ukraine aid, and his administration supports its eventual ascension to NATO. Earlier this month, Biden and Zelenskiy signed a 10-year bilateral security agreement.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:20 pm

    Nije sumanuto.
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:37 pm

    uopste nije osim sto ne uzima u obzir rusku poziciju. pregovora nema zato sto nema jasnih ruskih pozicija glede rata.


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:39 pm

    mislim ne moze i neutralnost i teritorija i sve


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    One Eyed Bob

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    Post by One Eyed Bob Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:42 pm

    Ovo je otprilike prvi razborit predlog koji sam čuo od 2022, starinsko lupanje glavama into submission, debeo štap i slatka šargarepa, Amerika svetski policajac, sve je tu. Bilo bi svakako zgodno kad bi Moskva rekla šta tačno želi.


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    Gdje punac drži pive?
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:56 pm

    pre i na početku pregovora svako hoće sve. važno je da baš ne uslovljava sam početak razgovora nebuloznim zahtevima, to je mera "dobre volje". 

    presek onoga što se hoće i može se utvrdi na pregovorima.
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Wed Jun 26, 2024 4:59 pm

    bilo bi dobro da rusi urade NESTO - tipa jednostrani prekid vatre


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:12 pm

    One Eyed Bob wrote:Ovo je otprilike prvi razborit predlog koji sam čuo od 2022, starinsko lupanje glavama into submission, debeo štap i slatka šargarepa, Amerika svetski policajac, sve je tu. Bilo bi svakako zgodno kad bi Moskva rekla šta tačno želi.

    Bar dvaput sam napisao ovde da se Moskvi mora pripretiti ako se želi dovući za sto. Mislim, predlog nije fantastičan, ima tu jos da se "pegla", ali je "nešto"
    rujofil

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    Post by rujofil Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:20 pm

    Rusija je od pocetka rata imala neke neke konkretne uslove i zahteve (osim one o denacifikaciji i demilitraziaciji) od ukr nikad niso culi to sto donekle i ima smisla jer je napadnuta strana
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:49 pm

    Pa nije samo zato, nego zamisli nekome trazis teritoriju i onda mu JOS nesto trazis, a napao si ga - pa to nema ni u pregovorima o Kosovu. Ne postoji vlast koja ce to da prihvati, pogotovu ako je nekakva demokratija.

    Putin u ovako koncipiranim pregovorima nema sanse da dobije tipa demilitarizaciju (naprotiv), obecanje da zauvek nema Nato (to je i Trumpovima, vidimo, jasno da nije opcija, samo odlaganje na jako dug rok), nema govora da im?prepuste eventualno teritorije koje jos nisu ni zauzeli... Nisam optimista, ali ovako koncipirano - nije totalno nemoguce da se nesto postigne.

    Ali ima nejasnoca. Tipa - mozda ce Amerika prestati da pomaze Ukrajinu, ali ona ne moze da preti u ime FRA, UK, itd. Dalje, a povezano sa ovim gore - sta krucijalno Ukrajina i Zapad uopste mogu da ponude Rusiji da to izgleda iole primamljivo Putinu (osim fakticke, ne i medjunarodno priznate, kontrole zaposednutih teritorija. Na kraju - sta ako Putin odbije? US onda mora da make good na svoje pretnje i onda ulazimo u mnogo zajebaniju situaciju i od ove sada.

    Dakle nije besmisleno, ali potrebno je jos dosta "peglanja"
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:56 pm

    Mogu skidanje sankcija, ok. Na primer. To moze
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:23 pm

    Ja sam skeptičan da taj proces i nekakav dogovor može ostati evropska tj evro-američka stvar. Mora neko sa strane da bude neki faktor garancija, Kina vrv, plus UN (makar i simbolički). Nema trunke poverenja izmeđ Moskve i Zapada da bi jedni drugima eto tako verovali.

    Sve je to longshot ali opet deluje kako tako izvodljivo.

    Al prvo čekamo šta, da pobedi Trampara.... lol, jebem te svete.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:25 pm

    Da Rat u Ukrajini - Page 27 1399639816
    plachkica

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    Post by plachkica Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:47 pm

    i bajdenu savetuju malo umereniji stav i više realnosti

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/biden-foreign-policy-world-rhodes
    Solus_Rex

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    Post by Solus_Rex Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:37 am



    _____
    "Sisaj kurac, Boomere. Spletkario si i nameštao ban pa se sad izvlačiš. Radiša je format a ti si mali iskompleksirani miš. Katastrofa za Burundi čoveče.
    A i deluje da te napustio drugar u odsudnom trenutku pa te spašavaju ova tovarka što vrv ni ne dismr na ribu, to joj se gadi, i ovaj južnjak koji o niškim kafanama čita na forumu. Prejaka šarža."  - Monsier K.
    Jack Palance

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    Post by Jack Palance Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:18 pm

    Del Cap wrote:Ja sam skeptičan da taj proces i nekakav dogovor može ostati evropska tj evro-američka stvar. Mora neko sa strane da bude neki faktor garancija, Kina vrv, plus UN (makar i simbolički). Nema trunke poverenja izmeđ Moskve i Zapada da bi jedni drugima eto tako verovali.

    Sve je to longshot ali opet deluje kako tako izvodljivo.

    Al prvo čekamo šta, da pobedi Trampara.... lol, jebem te svete.
    Kako da veruju kad su Rusi garantovali nezavisnost Ukrajine u zamenu za one atomke pa su to pogazili.


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    Činjenica da se između Rusije i Srbije nalazi Ukrajina je dokaz da imamo više sreće nego pameti!
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:34 pm

    rat u taktičko-tehnološkom zbiru pokriva period od prvog svetskog rata naovamo, well done.

    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Mon Jul 08, 2024 4:47 pm

    Brat Pućin ostvario pogodak u veliku dečju bolnicu u Kijevu, verovatno se u njoj krilo hiljade nacista i antirusa opšte prakse.
    One Eyed Bob

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    Post by One Eyed Bob Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:08 pm

    Bolesna deca su trebala da o tome misle tokom pregovora u Istanbulu, a sada neka snose konsekvence, da labavo parafraziram jednog neonacistu sa susednog foruma.


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    Gdje punac drži pive?
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:16 pm

    kao i kod bibija ovo nije bila greska vec namera.


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started

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