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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:44 pm

    wsj

    Biden’s Reluctance to Let Ukraine Join NATO Tests Alliance’s Unity
    The president says Ukraine isn’t ready to join NATO, warns of being drawn into war

    By Andrew Restuccia and Vivian Salama
    July 11, 2023 12:59 am ET

    VILNIUS, Lithuania—President Biden has spent much of the past year rallying the world behind Ukraine, funneling billions of dollars in aid to the war-torn country and strengthening ties with leader Volodymyr Zelensky.

    But for Biden, Kyiv’s campaign for rapid entry into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is a bridge too far.
    The American president has emerged as the leading opponent to granting Ukraine speedy membership to the alliance, putting him at odds with several key U.S. allies. The unresolved question about Ukraine’s place in NATO will put to the test the Western world’s unprecedented unity in the face of Russia’s assault.

    Biden arrived late Monday in the Lithuanian capital, about 140 miles from the Russian border, for the second gathering of NATO leaders since Russia launched its February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. His goal: Reinforcing the U.S. commitment to support Kyiv’s fight for as long as it takes, amid political headwinds at home and a growing strain on the American defense industry.

    But Biden’s outspoken concerns with Ukraine’s push to join NATO—he has raised the prospect that doing it too early could start World War III—have frustrated officials in Kyiv and elsewhere.

    “I don’t think it’s ready for membership in NATO,” Biden said in an interview with CNN that aired on Sunday, warning that bringing Ukraine into the alliance while it is at war with Russia would draw the U.S. and Europe into the conflict. He said NATO should lay out a path for Ukraine’s eventual entry into the alliance, but he said Kyiv still has work to do to meet the alliance’s standards for membership in areas like democratization.

    In drawing a line on the issue, Biden is breaking with several NATO members, including central European nations that have publicly backed Kyiv’s push for expedited membership. The president has embraced the so-called Israel model, in which the U.S. would provide security assistance to Ukraine without a guarantee that it will use military force to defend the country.

    Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, has called on NATO members to articulate a clear path for Ukraine to enter the alliance during the meeting. He argues that membership would deter Russia from attacking again.

    “The Biden administration is notably isolated in the alliance in its resistance to giving Ukraine membership,” said Ian Brzezinski, who served as a key adviser on NATO policy during the George W. Bush administration. Brzezinski argued that most NATO countries, aside from Hungary, are predisposed to supporting Ukraine’s entry into the alliance. Those who haven’t publicly backed the effort, he said, are taking their cues from the U.S., the alliance’s most influential member.

    A growing chorus of senior U.S. foreign policy officials is calling on Biden to temper his reluctance.

    “The likelihood of a future Ukraine dragging us into a war is much greater if they’re untethered to any Western alliance,” said Tom Malinowski, a former Democratic congressman from New Jersey who previously worked at the State Department during the Obama administration. “I don’t think it’s in our interest to see a Ukraine that is armed to the teeth, highly nationalistic, completely untethered to any western alliance and thus free to do whatever it wants.”

    Malinowski was one of nearly four dozen foreign policy experts and former U.S. officials who signed a recent open letter calling on NATO members to use the summit to “launch a road map that will lead clearly to Ukraine’s membership in NATO at the earliest achievable date.”

    Some of the signatories on the letter have argued that Ukraine’s membership in NATO can be structured in a way that applies the alliance’s Article 5 mutual defense obligation only to territory Ukraine controls at the time of ascension, which would prevent members from being drawn into a fight over winning back Crimea and other areas that Russia annexed.

    The Biden administration has been working with allies to provide Ukraine with security assurances, according to U.S. and European officials, a promise that is both welcomed by Kyiv and falls short of its desire for guarantees that pave the way toward NATO membership.

    NATO countries are also searching for a compromise that signals their intent to welcome Ukraine into the alliance without offering a firm timeline.

    Members of the alliance are set to waive a requirement that Kyiv complete a bureaucratic membership plan that could have delayed the country’s accession to the group for years, according to U.S. and European officials.

    But the move, which will be included in the NATO communiqué to be released at the close of the alliance’s summit in Lithuania, doesn’t mean Ukraine will join the group immediately. The country will still need to meet NATO’s standards for membership, including on democratic reforms, officials said.

    Zelensky is planning to attend the summit, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said on Monday. Biden plans to meet him on the sidelines of the summit, people familiar with the matter said. The Ukrainian president previously said he would only attend the meeting if he received a signal from NATO members on his country’s accession into the alliance.

    Despite the Biden administration’s efforts to emphasize unity, other signs of disagreement in the alliance have emerged. Turkey only dropped its opposition to Sweden’s membership in NATO on Monday, more than a year after the long-neutral Nordic country applied. And several NATO members have raised objections to the Inflation Reduction Act, the sweeping U.S. law that includes billions in incentives for the American clean energy sector.

    After the NATO summit, Biden is slated to travel to Finland, where he is expected to mark the country’s recent entry into the alliance.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Jul 11, 2023 4:57 pm

    Bajden možda ne zna koji je dan, ali ovde zna šta radi.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:04 pm

    Ma da, Bajden junacki odbija nasrtaje onih koji bi da neodgovorno uvuku ratni savez u rat, rizikujuci jedinstvo i istupanje Letonije, Litvanije, Estonije, Poljske i tek pristigle Finske, koje bi potom oformile sopstveni savez za rat sa Rusijom.

    Nato samit je jedna od najjadnije reziranih zapadnih predstava, gotovo na nivou srpske skupstine kada se glasa o poverenju Vucicu. Obicna predstava za javnost koja ima za cilj da pokrije sve uglove i sve eventualnosti, ima ovo, ima ono, moze jedno, moze drugo, mozda bidne trece al ne mora da znaci.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:01 pm

    dobra je ta politika (za amere) razvlačenja članstva, držiš sve u arbitrarnoj tenziji, i kijev i moskvu i fin deo evropskih nato zemalja. umetnost menadžovanja.
    паће

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    Post by паће Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:55 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:Pa narKOman, jedva je docekao. Prva strana Politike-worthy. 

    S druge strane, jel se ro odnosi i na ovu nasu namensku marihuanu...?  Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 2304934895

    Чегбре, па ова наша није бојева, јел' лепо рекла Брбана да то није то...

    fikret selimbašić wrote:
    Njemu kokainče, sirotinji travuga.

    Vučić je najavio zabranu izvoza proizvoda namjenske industrije.

    ...а ако није бојева, може да се рачуна у хуман'таарну. Само нек се извози.


    _____
       cousin for roasting the rakija
       И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:31 pm

    Del Cap wrote:dobra je ta politika (za amere) razvlačenja članstva, držiš sve u arbitrarnoj tenziji, i kijev i moskvu i fin deo evropskih nato zemalja. umetnost menadžovanja.


    +1

    Upravo tako. Plus odredis jedno 50 narednih koraka i alternativa, razvlacis ih, gledas da izvuces maksimalan profit i kada dodje vreme za neku kontroverznu odluku, ma kakva bila, vec je toliko razvlacena po medijima da javnost kaze "ajde neka bude vise" i delovace da tu nema nikakvih problema.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:31 pm

    Rusija tvrdi da je Tokmak danas zasut kasetnim bombama.
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:57 pm

    Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:Jel ubija taj Azov agresora?

    kog agresora


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    plachkica

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    Post by plachkica Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:36 am

    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:43 am

    kondo wrote:
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:Jel ubija taj Azov agresora?

    kog agresora


    Pa onog protiv koga su se borili 8 godina, od 2014. do 2022. Odnosno agresivni stanovnici Luganska i Donjecka.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:43 am

    Filipenko wrote:Rusija tvrdi da je Tokmak danas zasut kasetnim bombama.

    Nije nemoguce, dobili su ih nedavno
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:14 am

    Nisu ih dobili Maseratijima i Porseima. Ovo samo potvrdjuje da sve te isporuke krecu cim krenu da pustaju buve u novinama kako se razmislja o _______ i da Ukrajina do daljeg nece dobiti ________ posto to nije realno, eskaliralo bi konflikt, Amerika je zabrinuta ali se ceka odluka precednika itd.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:17 am

    Nefo, jesu pogodili neku stambenu zgradu ili samo ruZe?
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:19 am

    Ako je verovati brifingu ruskog ministarstva odbrane...


    Ne mogu dalje Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 1336943286 Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 3984128386 Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 1150481534 Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 3984128386 Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 286371741
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:28 am

    Filipenko wrote:
    kondo wrote:

    kog agresora


    Pa onog protiv koga su se borili 8 godina, od 2014. do 2022. Odnosno agresivni stanovnici Luganska i Donjecka.
    Radmilo Mihajlovic prodire po krilu, centarsut u kazneni prostor, Haris Skoro se u skoku okrece i makazicama salje loptu.... visoko preko gola.


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    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:32 am

    Ne znam sta je problem, pa i crvene beretke su se borile protiv agresora sto brise sve sto su radile po Kosovu, a kamoli Bosni pre toga. To je ta logika. (Leg)ende.
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:19 am

    Centarsut je naivno i dobronamerno pitanju ko je tu agresor, a makazice preko gola je neduhoviti i sarksasticni odgovor da su stanovnici Donbasa u stvari agresori. Uostalom, Prigozin je u retkom momentu iskrenosti lepo rekao sta se tu u stvari dogadjalo:

       
    Yevgeny Prigozhin, owner of the Russian Wagner Private Military Company (PMC), criticised Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and the General Staff for the failure of hostilities, stating that Ukraine did not plan to attack Donbas in 2022, and said that the Russian officials wanted the war, and the oligarchs wanted to make money.   

    Source: 
    Prigozhin's video

    Quote: "After 2014, the entire Donbas was scattered and looted by various people. Some of them were from the presidential administration, some from the FSB, some oligarchs, such as Kurchenko [Serhii – ed.], were involved. These are people who stole money from the residents of Donbas, who were in the unrecognised republics of LPR [so-called Luhansk People’s Republic – ed.] and DNR [so-called Donetsk People’s Republic – ed.]."

    Details: Prigozhin said that Russian generals at that time were "squandering" money on the maintenance of the so-called military corps in these "republics". Prigozhin also said that as of February 2022, Ukraine was not preparing an offensive on Donbas.


    _____
    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 9:44 am

    Opalac, sad Prigozin nije kriminalac i nacista, vec osoba kojoj se moze verovati, narocito kada je visoka politika u pitanju.

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 Djordje-vukadinovic
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:15 pm

    The G7 countries have agreed on common principles of long-term security guarantees for Ukraine

    The main principles of the G7 declaration include the following points:

    📌 The G7 countries (the US, Canada, Germany, the UK, France, Italy and Japan) have pledged to supply Ukraine with modern military equipment for the air force, navy and ground forces in the long term

    📌 G7 countries will provide training for the Ukrainian military, share intelligence and support Kyiv in the area of cyber security

    📌 In exchange, the G7 expects Ukraine to reform, including the judiciary, and civilian control of the armed forces

    These guarantees will allow Ukraine to "build an army that can defend itself and prevent future attack," said Amanda Slote, senior director for Europe at the US National Security Council.

    Earlier, Russian presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that the G7 plans to provide security guarantees to Ukraine were "potentially very dangerous" and "they encroach on Russia's security."


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    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:36 pm

    Velika Britanija nije Amazonova dostavna služba za oružje Ukrajini, a za Kijev bi možda bilo mudro da svojim saveznicima pokaže zahvalnost", rekao je britanski ministar obrane Ben Wallace, a prenosi Sky News.

    Wallace je rekao da je njegov "savjet" Ukrajincima da imaju na umu da trebaju uvjeriti neke sumnjičave političare u Washingtonu i drugim glavnim gradovima Zapada da su deseci milijardi funti koje troše na vojnu pomoć njihovoj zemlji za rat s Rusijom vrijedni toga.

    Wallace je to kazao odgovarajući na pitanje Sky Newsa hoće li neuspjeh saveznika da predsjedniku Zelenskom daju vremenski okvir za članstvo u NATO-u na velikom summitu održanom u Vilniusu potkopati moral ukrajinskih vojnika na prvoj liniji. Ministar obrane rekao je da ne vjeruje da je to slučaj, a potom je dodao da Ukrajina uvijek traži više, čak i nakon što je primila najnoviju pošiljku oružja.

    "Tu moramo biti oprezni. Sviđalo se to nama ili ne, ljudi žele vidjeti zahvalnost", rekao je Wallace na brifingu za novinare na marginama dvodnevnog summita u litvanskoj prijestolnici Vilniusu.

    "Moj savjet Ukrajincima je... Gledajte, uvjeravate zemlje da odustanu od svojih zaliha [oružja] i da, ovaj rat je plemenit, i da, vidimo to kao da vodite rat ne samo za sebe nego i za naše slobode", rekao je Wallace.

    "Ali ponekad morate uvjeriti zakonodavce na Capitol Hillu u Americi, morate uvjeriti sumnjičave političare u drugim zemljama da je to vrijedno i da oni dobivaju nešto za to. I sviđalo se to vama ili ne, to je jednostavno stvarnost", rekao je.

    Wallace je rekao da se "ponekad čuje gunđanje" američkih zakonodavaca - ne Bidenove administracije - o podršci Ukrajini jer su dali "83 milijarde dolara ili koliko već". "Znate... mi nismo Amazon."

    Ministar obrane naveo je da je i prošle godine u lipnju rekao Ukrajincima da Velika Britanija nije dostavna služba kada je riječ o isporuci oružja. "Rekao sam Ukrajincima prošle godine, kada sam vozio 11 sati do Kijeva, da mi daju popis - rekao sam 'mi nismo Amazon'."

    Također je rekao da ih je upozorio da moraju pružiti bolju obuku svojim vojnicima kako bi zaustavili visoku stopu gubitaka jer bi to moglo dovesti do gubitka političke podrške. Umjesto toga ponudio je program obuke ukrajinskih vojnika u Velikoj Britaniji.


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    Летећи Полип

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    Post by Летећи Полип Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:42 pm

    Pa i amazon naplati. Što robu, što dostavu.


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    Ne dajte da vas prevare! Sačuvajte svoje pojene!
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:13 pm


    Rusija ne mora da plaća, Vagner daje džaba Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 1844795956


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    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:25 pm

    Ben Valas rekao da Ukrajinci nisu dovoljno zahvalni za pomoc koju dobijaju i da je kada je vozio 11 sati do Ukrajine dobijao spiskove sta Ukrajinci zele od oruzja kao da je Amazon; Minhauzelenski mu porucio da mu dostavi spisak kako da mu se zahvali i da ce to i uciniti  Rat u Ukrajini - Page 14 2729202060
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:36 pm

    Dve nedelje pre toga neki Benov zemljak reče da je Ukrajina slupala pola efektive koje su Rusi imali 24.2.2022.


    _____
    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:50 pm

    Sasvim moguce. Doduse, Rusija je uletela s efektivom za 300k vojnika, ali dobro. Ne zelim da umanjujem zasluge U-vojske.

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