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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:39 pm

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/07/opinion/russia-ukraine-us-tanks.html

    Russia and Ukraine Have Incentives to Negotiate. The U.S. Has Other Plans.
    Feb. 7, 2023, 5:00 a.m. ET
    By Christopher Caldwell


    The United States’ recent promise to ship advanced M1 Abrams battle tanks to Ukraine was a swift response to a serious problem. The problem is that Ukraine is losing the war. Not, as far as we can tell, because its soldiers are fighting poorly or its people have lost heart, but because the war has settled into a World War I-style battle of attrition, complete with carefully dug trenches and relatively stable fronts.


    Such wars tend to be won — as indeed World War I was — by the side with the demographic and industrial resources to hold out longest. Russia has more than three times Ukraine’s population, an intact economy and superior military technology. At the same time, Russia has its own problems; until recently, a shortage of soldiers and the vulnerability of its arms depots to missile strikes have slowed its westward progress. Both sides have incentives to come to the negotiating table.

    The Biden administration has other plans. It is betting that by providing tanks it can improve Ukraine’s chances of winning the war. In a sense, the idea is to fast-forward history, from World War I’s battles of position to World War II’s battles of movement. It is a plausible strategy: Eighty years ago, the tanks of Hitler and Stalin revolutionized warfare not far from the territory being fought over today.

    But the Biden strategy has a bad name: escalation. Beyond a certain point, the United States is no longer “helping” or “advising” or “supplying” the Ukrainians, the way it did, say, the Afghan mujahedeen during the Cold War. It is replacing Ukraine as Russia’s main battlefield adversary. It is hard to say when that point will be reached or whether it has been already. With whom is Russia at war — Ukraine or the United States? Russia started the war between Russia and Ukraine. Who started the war between Russia and the United States?

    This sudden policy lurch has the look of an accident. The Biden administration sought for weeks to convince Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany to provide Ukraine with his country’s Leopard 2 tanks. It was a hard sell. Back in the 1980s when Mr. Scholz, a Social Democrat, was campaigning for European disarmament as a member of his party’s Young Socialist wing, he probably didn’t picture himself in the role of the first chancellor since Hitler to send German tanks into battle on the Russian front.

    Mr. Scholz refused to release the Leopards unless the United States released its own best tanks. His desire to move in lock step with the United States surely has something to do with Germany’s dark past. But it may also rest on fears of being rolled. Twice this century, Germany has refused to be dragged into a war to protect the world from an evil dictator: Chancellor Gerhard Schröder led the opposition to George W. Bush’s Iraq invasion in 2003, and in 2011, Mr. Schröder’s successor, Angela Merkel, dissented from the Anglo-Franco-American view that an invasion of Libya would be required to stop Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi from committing a genocide. The German view proved wiser in both instances.

    Perhaps this crusade is different. Perhaps not. Mr. Scholz, in the end, acquiesced in the request for tanks. But by insisting that the United States also pledge its own tanks, he offered at least token resistance.

    In an age of smart devices, robotics and remote control, the United States’ involvement in the war has always been greater than it appeared. The computer-guided rocket artillery that Ukraine has received from the United States may seem analogous to the horses and rifles that a government might have sent to back an insurgency in the old days. They look at first like traditional weapons, albeit advanced ones.

    But there is an important difference. Most of the new weapons’ destructive power comes from their being bound into an American information network, a package of services that keeps working independently of the warrior and will not be fully shared with the warrior. So the United States is participating in these military operations at the moment they happen. It is fighting.

    Last spring, Ukraine shocked the Russian navy by using American targeting information to sink the Moskva, a Black Sea missile cruiser. Only months into the war did Russians face up to the fact that officers using their personal cellphones were regularly getting blown up. This past New Year’s Eve, a dormitory full of fresh Russian army recruits in the city of Makiivka was hit by missiles at the crack of midnight, presumably just as the young men were calling their friends and loved ones to wish them the joys of the coming year. The attack killed 89, according to Russian authorities — more than 300, according to the British Ministry of defense, which accused Russian authorities of “deliberate lying” about the attack to minimize their losses.

    After such episodes, Russia’s leaders are unlikely to feel that the resistance they are meeting comes from Ukraine. The role of the United States is considerably more active than merely responding to Ukrainian “requests” for this or that. Having itself designed the weaponry in most cases, the United States may have a better sense of which tech solutions are appropriate to local battlefield challenges.

    Abrams tanks require experienced technicians for training and repair. Will these technicians be brought onto the battlefield from the United States? Then we will have a situation analogous to the introduction of “advisers” into Vietnam in the early 1960s. “This is not an offensive threat to Russia,” President Biden said of the Abrams tank shipments last month. He’s entitled to his opinion, but it is probably not shared by the Russian leadership.

    President Biden’s own advisers are divided on how aggressively to pursue the war. Some even propose to chase Russia out of Crimea. That would promise a new kind of mission for NATO: the conquest, annexation and garrisoning of a population that doesn’t want it.

    The Russian invasion of Ukraine has to do with a complicated set of post-Cold War historical trends (like America’s striking post-Cold War rise and its more recent relative decline) and economic accidents (like the vicissitudes of fossil fuel prices). But it is also the latest chapter of an ongoing geostrategic story in which the plot has changed little over the centuries: The largest country by area on the planet has no reliable exit into the world. The most reliable route runs through the Black Sea, where it crosses the trade routes that link the civilizations of Asia to the civilizations of Europe. There, or thereabouts, Russian forces clashed with the armies of many Turkish sultans in the 17th and 18th centuries, Lord Palmerston of Britain in the 19th and Hitler in the 20th.

    Speaking last week at the 80th anniversary of the Soviet victory over Germany at the battle of Stalingrad, President Vladimir Putin of Russia described the present war as a similar effort. Russians say the war is about preventing the installation of an enemy military stronghold on the Black Sea, strong enough to close off what has for centuries been Russia’s main access to the outside world. Without Ukraine, Russia can be turned into a vassal state. That NATO intends to bring about the subjugation, breakup or even extinction of Russia may be true or false — but it will not sound implausible to a Russian.


    Many Americans cannot resist describing Mr. Putin as a “barbarian” and his invasion of Ukraine as a “war of aggression.” For their part Russians say this is a war in which Russia is fighting for its survival and against the United States in an unfair global order in which the United States enjoys unearned privileges.

    We should not forget that, whatever values each side may bring to it, this war is not at heart a clash of values. It is a classic interstate war over territory and power, occurring at a border between empires. In this confrontation Mr. Putin and his Russia have fewer good options for backing down than American policymakers seem to realize, and more incentives to follow the United States all the way up the ladder of escalation.
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:58 pm

    autor je inace neocon


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:03 pm

    Pa nek im ponude Krim
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:04 pm

    Ceo tekst je sustinski oko pristupa Crnom Moru. Rusija je imala širok izlaz na Crno More pre invazije.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:38 pm

    Radi se naravno (i) o strateskom polozaju Rusije, ali nije rec (samo) o Crnom Moru. Zakarpatje je mali, ali ipak geografski deo Srednje Evrope. Ušće Dunava je ulaz na Balkan i uopšte kontrola puta Dunava u Crno More. Ukrajina, zajedno sa Belorusijom, obezbedjuje širok izlaz na Poljsku granicu. Ukrajina obezbedjuje ne samo izlaz na C.More (navodni  glavni cilj po autoru) nego ga i utvrdjuje širokim zaledjem - što ne postoji kao neko prirodno "pravo" velikih sila ni realističkim teorijama medjunarodnih odnosa. 

    Dalje, krajnji cilj ruske invazije (koji nece biti ostvaren, ali sa kojim se u akciju uslo), je stavljanje cele Ukrajine pod dominantan uticaj Rusije. Nema naznaka da je Putin odustao od takvog cilja iako je mozda silom prilika odustao da ga ostvari vojnim putem. To je za Nato i Zapad vrlo problematicno, sasvim odvojeno od pitanja pretežnog uticaja u samoj Ukrajini. Time (ovo sam mislim vec pisao)ruska interesna sfera izlazi na Orbanovu Madjarsku, koja se naslanja na neutralnu i ruskom uticaju podloznu Austriju, a ova se naslanja na Svajcarsku. Na drugu stranu Madjarska se naslanja na Srbiju i dalje CG i BiH i tako dalje. Drugim recima - u onom smislu u koje je ovo rat Nato/US  protiv Rusije, u tom istom smislu je ovo i rat Rusije protiv Nato/US i njihovog bezbednosnog poretka u širokom potezu u Evropi od Jadrana do Baltika, pa i malo dalje (tu je Nemačka...). Uticaj se tu ne bi širio naravno vojno, ali bi prosto Rusija bila faktor sa kojim bi se ekonomski i politički moralo računati. Tim putem bi se i u slučaju ozbiljnijeg sukoba US sa Kinom mnogo lakše pacifikovale politike EU prema tom sukobu.

     
    U tom smislu tj. u tim svim smislovima je Ukrajina ključna. I u tom smislu, gledajući iz američkog ugla, Bajdenova politika je sve samo ne besmislena (a naravno da nije sleepwalking).
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:10 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    To je za Nato i Zapad vrlo problematicno, sasvim odvojeno od pitanja pretežnog uticaja u samoj Ukrajini. Time (ovo sam mislim vec pisao)ruska interesna sfera izlazi na Orbanovu Madjarsku, koja se naslanja na neutralnu i ruskom uticaju podloznu Austriju, a ova se naslanja na Svajcarsku. Na drugu stranu Madjarska se naslanja na Srbiju i dalje CG i BiH i tako dalje. Drugim recima - u onom smislu u koje je ovo rat Nato/US  protiv Rusije, u tom istom smislu je ovo i rat Rusije protiv Nato/US i njihovog bezbednosnog poretka u širokom potezu u Evropi od Jadrana do Baltika, pa i malo dalje (tu je Nemačka...). Uticaj se tu ne bi širio naravno vojno, ali bi prosto Rusija bila faktor sa kojim bi se ekonomski i politički moralo računati. Tim putem bi se i u slučaju ozbiljnijeg sukoba US sa Kinom mnogo lakše pacifikovale politike EU prema tom sukobu.


    What's not to like?  Rat u Ukrajini - Page 31 1012898122
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:45 pm

    Pa za nekog ko na primer sedi u Beloj kuci ili Pentagonu, there's a lot not to like Rat u Ukrajini - Page 31 1399639816

    A tekst prica o njima Rat u Ukrajini - Page 31 1143415371
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:45 pm

    Eh, da si ovako kritican i analitičan bio prema šarenim revolucijama od 2004 do 2014....


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:49 pm

    "German government approved the delivery of 178 Leopard 1 tanks to Kiev.The decision will be officially announced on the evening of February 7" - Spiegel
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:49 pm

    Molim 1 balističku za društvo u ćošku....


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:59 pm

    Citao sam da te Leoparde 1 najbolje da koriste kao IFVs...
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:08 pm

    kondo wrote:Eh, da si ovako kritican i analitičan bio prema šarenim revolucijama od 2004 do 2014....

    U cemu je problem sa 2004?
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:11 pm

    The head of the United Nations, António Guterres, has warned that further escalation in the Russia-Ukraine conflict could mean the world is heading towards a “wider war”.
    The secretary general laid out his priorities for the year in a gloomy speech to the UN general assembly that focused on Russia’s invasion, the climate crisis and extreme poverty.
    “We have started 2023 staring down the barrel of a confluence of challenges unlike any in our lifetimes,” he told diplomats in New York.
    Guterres noted that top scientists and security experts had moved the Doomsday Clock to just 90 seconds to midnight last month, the closest it has ever been to signalling the annihilation of humanity.
    The secretary general said he was taking it as a warning sign.
    “We need to wake up – and get to work,” he implored, as he read out a list of urgent issues for 2023.
    Top of the list was Russia’s war in Ukraine, which is approaching its one-year anniversary.
    “The prospects for peace keep diminishing. The chances of further escalation and bloodshed keep growing,” he said.
    “I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/06/un-chief-antonio-guterres-fears-wider-war-russia-ukraine


    Last edited by rumbeando on Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:11 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    kondo wrote:Eh, da si ovako kritican i analitičan bio prema šarenim revolucijama od 2004 do 2014....

    U cemu je problem sa 2004?

    U čemu je problem sa 2014?


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Desmond Bojčinski

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    Post by Desmond Bojčinski Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:16 pm

    kondo wrote:
    Mór Thököly wrote:

    U cemu je problem sa 2004?

    U čemu je problem sa 2014?

    Ovo kao iz vica, Putine pobij sve ove i ofarbaj Kremlj u plavo...
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:17 pm

    kondo wrote:
    Mór Thököly wrote:

    U cemu je problem sa 2004?

    U čemu je problem sa 2014?

    Pa o tome bar ima sta da se prica, o 2004 je sve jasno.
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:23 pm

    Desmond Bojčinski wrote:
    kondo wrote:

    U čemu je problem sa 2014?

    Ovo kao iz vica, Putine pobij sve ove i ofarbaj Kremlj u plavo...


    Oranž brte oranž...


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:25 pm

    Glede Leoparda 1

    N1

    Veći deo, međutim, verovatno neće biti isporučen do 2024. godine.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:54 pm

    mora dekonzervacija, remont, modernizacija, šta već sve ide.
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:22 am

    najviše volem kad nađem baticu ješu rođenom u odesi u vreme CCCP koji ne jebe ni putina ni post 2014 ukrajinu ni ameriku, ne smatra se ni rusom ni ukrajincem ni amerikancem nego ješom

    inače ima najbolji audio sistem na svetu

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02fYuobqkXQ


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:38 am

    ​Ruski budžet u januaru '23. u odnosu na januar '22:
    Prihodi ↓ za 35%
    Rashodi ↑ za 59%
    Pokrivenost rashoda prihodima u januaru prošle godine bila 106%, a sad je 43,5% (tj. osetno više od polovine rashoda nije pokriveno prihodima)
    Deficit u januaru ove godine iznosi 25 milijardi dolara.
     
    MOSCOW, February 6. /TASS/. Russia’s federal budget deficit may amount to 1.76 trillion rubles ($24.61 bln), according to preliminary estimates of the Ministry of Finance.
    "According to preliminary estimates, the volume of federal budget revenues in January 2023 amounted to 1.356 trillion rubles, which is 35% lower than the volume of revenues in January 2022," the ministry said on Monday.
    The preliminary volume of expenditures of the Russian budget in January reached 3.117 trillion rubles ($43.58 bln), exceeding the figures for the same period last year by 59%.
    The ministry also added that oil and gas revenues of the Russian budget, according to preliminary data, amounted to 426 bln rubles ($5.96 bln) in January 2023 and decreased by 46% compared to January 2022.
    https://tass.com/economy/1572381​

    Poređenja radi, ukupan deficit u celoj '22. bio je 48 milijardi dolara.

    MOSCOW, January 18. /TASS/. Russia’s federal budget deficit totaled 3.3 trillion rubles ($48 bln) in January-December 2022, according to preliminary estimates, the Finance Ministry reported on Wednesday.
    https://tass.com/economy/1564023

    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:10 am

    Ma sankcije rade. Jedino sto ovo nece spreciti Putina da vodi rat godinama. S druge strane, unistavanje Ukrajine radi jos mnogo bolje. Ukrajinski GDP je pao niko ne zna tacno koliko ali 30-40% sto je kataklizma neuporedivo gora od ovoga u Rusiji. E sad, Zelenski mnogo manje mora da objasnjava nekom zasto je to tako. Ali ekonomski rat Rusija protiv Ukrajine dobija. No, ruski narativ je da "ratuju protiv Natoa". Medjutim, u tom slucaju oni debelo gube i ekonomski rat. Tako da, ako hoce da se posle rata porede sa Ukrajinom onda je sve u redu. Ali posto im je ambicija da i posle rata budu velika sila porediva sa US i Kinom, onda nista nije u redu.
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:12 am

    Mór Thököly wrote:Citao sam da te Leoparde 1 najbolje da koriste kao IFVs...

    Tenk je loš, ali zato nema municije za njega. To jest ima, ali u Brazilu kome ne pada na pamet da je proda.


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    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:18 am

    Pa to je 1 od razloga, pretpostavljam, zasto kazu ovo sto napisah.
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:24 am

    Pa do 2024 će verovatno početi da proizvode i tu municiju. Ali da, to je tenk u rangu T62, T72 ga pobedjuje.


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    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”

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