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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:55 pm

    Zaboravio si i ugljen monoksid, kao u nacističkim dušegupkama, i o tome se danas maštalo.
    Inače detektovao sam kada je sve počelo, kada je neki forumaš uporedio Azovstal sa terenom iz first person pucačine.

    I da, zaboravih na jednu sitnicu: pre aktuelnog gunđanja "zašto neće da se predaju" bilo je aktuelno "uuu, oni imaju nerazrešene stvari sa kadirovcima, šta će da im rade kadirovci uuu". Pa možda zato ne žele da se predaju, a ne zbog neobičnog ukrajinskog kulta smrti, poniklog u najtamnijim hodnicima Pentagona odakle se diriguje nejakim ukrajinskim mozgovima, mmm?
    Sotir

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    Post by Sotir Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:01 pm

    Пуно маштарија око измаштаног подземног града.

    Против тако укопаног противника, а и било ког другог, никакви гасови, сузавци и хемикалије нису дозвољени. 

    Пуштање воде, дејство разним експлозивима је сасвим легитимно, и рађено досад више пута
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:02 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:Zaboravio si i ugljen monoksid, kao u nacističkim dušegupkama, i o tome se danas maštalo.
    Inače detektovao sam kada je sve počelo, kada je neki forumaš uporedio Azovstal sa terenom iz first person pucačine.

    Nije čudo, prebogata je kolekcija predloženih rešenja.


    _____
    Međuopštinski pustolov.

    Zli stolar.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:23 pm

    fikret selimbašić wrote:Prije svega ovaj poziv na predaju nije prvi, sjeća li se još neko da je prvi bio prije mjesec dana?

    Meni je, iako manje ezoterično, znakovito kako se mašta forumaša raspalila sa predlozima kako da riješe Azovstalj. Kad već neće da se predaju da ih Kadirovci, po zasluzi, ispeku na ražnju za iftar, onda padaju predlozi o upumpavanju vode ili eksplozivnog gasa, vakuum bombe, aerosolne bombe, betoniranje ulaza, tepih bombardovanje teškim glupim bombama, FOAB, klasični bojni otrovi ili nešto od novih iz ruskog arsenala, najhrabriji predlažu i taktičke nuklearke. Šljapka pod nogama od tjelesnih lučevina.

    Neobični kult tuđe smrti
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:55 pm

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/16/us-nato-isolate-russia/

    U.S., allies plan for long-term isolation of Russia
    A new strategy would mark a return to containment after years of seeking cooperation and coexistence with Moscow
    By Karen DeYoung and Michael Birnbaum
    Today at 7:28 p.m. EDT


    Nearly two months into Vladimir Putin’s brutal assault on Ukraine, the Biden administration and its European allies have begun planning for a far different world, in which they no longer try to coexist and cooperate with Russia, but actively seek to isolate and weaken it as a matter of long-term strategy.

    At NATO and the European Union, and at the State Department, the Pentagon and allied ministries, blueprints are being drawn up to enshrine new policies across virtually every aspect of the West’s posture toward Moscow, from defense and finance to trade and international diplomacy.

    Outrage is most immediately directed at Putin himself, who President Biden said last month “can’t remain in power.” While “we don’t say regime change,” said a senior E.U. diplomat, “it is difficult to imagine a stable scenario with Putin acting the way he is.”

    But the nascent new strategy goes far beyond the Kremlin leader, as planners are continuing to revise seminal documents that are to be presented in the coming months. Biden’s first National Security Strategy, legally required last year but still uncompleted, is likely to be significantly altered from initial expectations it would concentrate almost exclusively on China and domestic renewal. The Pentagon’s new National Defense Strategy, sent last month in classified form to Congress, prioritizes what a brief Pentagon summary called “the Russia challenge in Europe,” as well as the China threat.

    NATO’s first Strategic Concept document since 2010, when it sought a “true strategic partnership” with Russia, will be unveiled at the alliance summit in June. “Meaningful dialogue, as we strived for before, is not an option for Russia,” NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said at a news conference early this month.

    The European Union has drawn up plans to cut its heavy dependency on Russian gas by two-thirds by the end of this year, and end all fossil fuel imports from Russia before 2030. “It is not so much about sanctions, but it is about articulating a path to zero, making sure that we become independent of Russian gas and oil,” Dutch Foreign Minister Wopke Hoekstra said in a forum Thursday at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

    “For some, that will be a trajectory of months. For others, it might be years. But the Netherlands and other countries are dead serious about this,” Hoekstra said. “Never again the same mistake.”


    Allies have announced major defense budget increases stretching far into the future. Finland and Sweden are expected to apply for NATO membership ahead of the June summit in Madrid, a significant shift in the balance of European security that would also sharply increase the alliance’s military presence near Russia.

    A week ago, Biden signed bills ending normal trade relations with Russia and codifying his U.S. ban on Russian oil imports. Last week, the United Nations General Assembly voted to suspend Russia’s membership from the U.N. Human Rights Council, and a long-simmering movement to revise the membership and powers of the Security Council, where Russia freely uses its veto power, gained new impetus.

    Few Western leaders are willing to venture a guess as to when, and how, the Ukraine crisis will play out. Many of the proposed changes “can’t be fully decided until we know how this conflict ends,” said Alexander Vershbow, a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, senior Pentagon official and deputy NATO secretary general. “Does it end?” Or does it drag on with an uneasy cease-fire, with “no war, no peace, for several years?”

    But the long-term strategy is being drawn up even as the allies address the immediate crisis with escalating sanctions against Moscow, weapons aid to Ukraine, and the deployment of tens of thousands of their own troops to NATO’s eastern border. Many of those measures and more are now expected to stay permanently in place, according to public leader statements and conversations with eight senior U.S. and foreign officials, some of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss closed-door planning.

    “At the end of the day, what we want to see is a free and independent Ukraine, a weakened and isolated Russia and a stronger, more unified, more determined West,” Biden national security adviser Jake Sullivan said last Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “We believe that all three of those objectives are in sight.”

    Some have questioned both the wisdom of the plans and the staying power of the West, advising against a return to the “containment” policy that governed relations with the Soviet Union. Others have said the Ukraine crisis, and its profound effect on Europe, offer an opportunity for the United States to withdraw from at least some of its expensive, self-assumed responsibilities to defend the free world.

    “If anything,” historian Stephen Wertheim argued this month in Foreign Affairs magazine, “the war has strengthened the case for strategic discipline, by offering a chance to encourage Europe to balance against Russia while the United States concentrates on security in Asia and renewal at home.”

    Not everyone favors the long-term isolation of Moscow. In France, where President Emmanuel Macron is locked in a surprisingly close reelection race with the surging candidacy of Marine Le Pen, she has called for reconciliation between NATO and Russia and has reiterated a pledge to pull France out of the alliance’s integrated command. And there are voices in Germany in favor of keeping the door open to dialogue with the Kremlin to facilitate an eventual rapprochement.

    In the United States, the issue is one of the few in which Biden has strong bipartisan support. Backing for a tough line against Russia appears also to have subdued Republican disdain for NATO, a hallmark of the Trump administration, as alliance members from Washington to Russia’s western border insist that the need for, and the reality of, a common stand is higher than ever before.

    But if the immediacy of Ukraine dissipates, along with daily images of new horrors there, disagreements inevitably will arise over increased defense spending, the need to engage with Russia on issues such as nonproliferation, charges that attention is being pulled away from China, and disruptions of trade that bring rising prices at home that disrupt the president’s domestic agenda.

    “We must commit now to be in this fight for the long haul,” Biden said during a visit to Warsaw last month, outlining the fight as one between democracy and autocracy. “We must remain unified today and tomorrow and the day after and for the years and decades to come. It will not be easy. There will be costs.”

    The last major overhaul of relations with Russia, guiding hopes after the collapse of the Soviet Union, came in 1997, when NATO leaders and Moscow approved the “Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security.” Reflecting “the changing security environment in Europe, … in which the confrontation of the Cold War has been replaced with the promise of closer cooperation among former adversaries,” it said they would act together to build “a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic Area.”

    As it sought to tie Russia to interdependency, the Founding Act included specific commitments to respect states’ sovereignty, peacefully settle disputes, and, on NATO’s part, an intention to avoid any additional permanent stationing of “substantial combat forces” on Russia’s borders. It also specifically said it was not intended to “delay, limit or dilute NATO’s opening for the accession of new members.”

    In subsequent years, those commitments were often tested, most recently before the current crisis by Russian’s 2014 invasion of parts of eastern Ukraine and annexation of Crimea, and resulting Western sanctions. But even after those events, Europe and the United States eased back into a relationship with Russia, either out of economic imperatives, as with Europe’s energy imports, or out of desire, as when former president Donald Trump bragged about his deep bond with Putin.

    But at an emergency NATO summit last month, “leaders agreed to reset our deterrence and defense for the long term,” Stoltenberg said. “To face a new security reality” with substantially more forces in the east, more jets in the skies and more ships at sea. Russia has “walked away” from the Founding Act, he said later. “That doesn’t exist any more.”

    A senior European official said that “the one lesson we take away from a Russian aggression that many thought could not be possible, is that here is a country that is ready to do something that no security guarantee or even plausible expectation [can ensure] that it can’t happen again.”

    “We thought interdependence, connectiveness, would be conducive to stability because we had correlating interests. Now, we’ve seen this is not the case. Russia was highly connected with Europe, a globalized country.” the official said. “Interdependence, we’ve now seen, can entail severe risks, if a country is ruthless enough. … We have to adapt to a situation that is absolutely new.”

    Several European policymakers said their current calculations are shaped by two major factors. The first is the expectation that any truce in Ukraine is likely to be temporary. Even if Putin agrees to lay down arms for the moment, many Europeans believe he will seek to regroup, rebuild the Russian military and attack again once he feels ready.

    The second is a deep horror at the Russian military’s atrocities against civilians that have come to light since its forces pulled back toward eastern Ukraine in the past two weeks. Many believe Putin himself may need to face war crimes charges in front of international tribunals.

    The combination means many Europeans feel their continent will be unstable and insecure so long as Putin is in the Kremlin. And if they are not yet willing to embrace an active effort to oust his regime, support is growing there, as well as in the United States, to permanently cut off his country.

    “There is growing realization that this is a long-term situation and that a strategy of containment, a strategy of defense, is forming,” Latvian Foreign Minister Edgars Rinkevics said in an interview. “Support Ukraine as much as you can, sanction Russia as much as you can, do as much as you can do to reduce dependence on Russia however you can and finally, yes, put more emphasis on military defense.”

    Rinkevics was among the E.U. foreign ministers who had breakfast in Luxembourg this week with the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court to discuss war crimes.

    “When it comes to the investigation of all the war crimes, it cannot stop at the field commander, and in Russia, the ultimate commander in chief is the president of the Russian Federation,” Rinkevics said. “The feeling after Bucha,” the Kyiv suburb where withdrawing Russian troops left scores of dead civilians in the streets, some apparently tortured and executed, “is that it will be very difficult to speak with Putin or anyone in the Russian government without remembering what happened.”

    Apparently strong backing for the war among Russians has also caused a recalculation among allied policymakers about a long-standing effort to draw a distinction between the country’s population and its leadership, said Lithuanian Vice Defense Minister Margiris Abukevicius. Russians appear to have the leaders they want, he said — another reason to dig in and prepare for a long standoff.

    “There is collective responsibility,” Abukevicius said. “At the beginning, we were saying ‘Putin’s war.’ Now, we are more and more saying ‘Russia’s war.’”
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:13 pm

    Mda, change of policy, "Russia's war", a za Volodimira su sada odredili "Putin's price hike", jer im treba neko da i tu izigrava krivca za inflaciju. U sustini, samo ce ozvaniciti ono sto sprovode u praksi.

    Inace, dusa mi je puna kada vidim da se neko iscudjava onome sto Ukri rade svojima, nakon svih vezivanja za bandere, likvidacija clanova pregovaracke delegacije, maltretiranja i ubijanja sefova policija, ubistava gradonacelnika i otimanja clanova njihovih porodica i tako dalje. Bas cudno da sada zabranjuju vojsci da se preda. Pa zato su i instalirali fanatike poput Azova, Ajdara i slicnih i pomesali ih sa vojskom. Nacisti su dobro to sve sredili i pripremili pre pocetka vecih ratnih operacija.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:34 pm

    Glavni problem sa ovim ratom je kako i zasto se Ukrajinci ne predaju
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:43 pm

    Problem sa predajom boraca iz Azovstala je prosto u tome što to ne odgovara onima koji vode Ukrajinsku vojsku. Spojili su Azov i regularnu jedinicu i tako veliki broj boraca stavili pod komandu Azov. Oni se neće predati. Da li su regularni vojnici hteli da se predaju, ne znam, pretpostavljam da su se predali ovi koju hteli a da su oni koji nisu, preferirali da nastave borbu pod Azov komandom. Enivejs, komanda VU je pokazala da su svi Ukrajinci pod oružjem nacisti, Azov, jedno i da je to to.

    Rusi priželjkuju predaju jer žele da se pokažu kako poštuju ratno pravo i zarobljenika, da nikome neće faliti dlaka sa glave i da na taj način pošalju poruku svima koji su se latili oružja protiv njih.

    Ako mene pitate, da sam Rus, uradio bi sve da ovi napolje izađu živi - voda, suzavci, pičke materine. Onda bi Ukrajince tretirao po ženevskoj konvenciji a strane plaćenike bi likvidirao pred kamerama po ISIS metodologiji u roku od 24h od zarobljavanja.

    Filipenko?


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:47 pm

    Nije suština u predaji nego da se sačuvaju životi - da ponovim: lako je ukrajinskim kurcem ruske gloginje mlatiti.
    Ja isto pričam otkad su Rusi krenuli da gomilaju vojsku na granici - napisao sam da Zelenski treba da uradi sve da ne dođe do rata (ruski jezik, pokrajine... itd) pa su mi ovde rekli da bi ga nacisti ubili da proba da to uradi. Sad se mrtvi gomilaju, a on živ i komanduje predsednicima zemalja tačno tako kao što je komandovao Azovom.
    Sa jedne strane je KGB agent bez zrnca morala, sa druge glumac - budala, a između njih leševi.


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      Sweet and Tender Hooligan  
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    Post by Guest Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:54 pm

    Zamorno je ovo izjednačavanje krivica žrtve i agresora, ne znam kako da polemišem sa time.
    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:56 pm

    Pa jeste zamorno - lakše je sve gledati crno-belo, binarno... itd.


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      Sweet and Tender Hooligan  
    Pink_ćevabdžinica_Altina

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    Post by Pink_ćevabdžinica_Altina Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:58 pm

    Pa realno treba ukrajinci da presude azovcima i onda se predaju

    Suludo mnogo tamo ljudi vrv gine, ono posle mesec dana borbe njih ima i dalje 3 ljade



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    Radimo dostavu
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:00 pm

    Ukrajina je popunila upitnik o prijemu u EU koji im je ceremonijalno urucila Usrala fon der Lajava, Evropa je na potezu. Rat u Ukrajini - Page 27 2952840586


    Last edited by Filipenko on Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:00 pm

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 27 3OfOhJS

    Ruski vojnici budisti na verskom obredu.


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      Sweet and Tender Hooligan  
    Pink_ćevabdžinica_Altina

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    Post by Pink_ćevabdžinica_Altina Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:01 pm

    Ja ne bih streljao ali bih slao u sibir


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    Radimo dostavu
    kapetanm

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    Post by kapetanm Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:12 pm

    Eh kad bi u ovom, kao u bilo kom drugom ratu bilo lako povuci liniju izmedju crnog i belog, tipa vitezovi protiv zla. Imamo punno primera iz blize proslosti
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:18 pm

    Notxor wrote:Rat u Ukrajini - Page 27 3OfOhJS

    Ruski vojnici budisti na verskom obredu.


    Kalmici. Držao sam ih u nekoj zabačenoj fioci sećanja vezano za Stivena Sigala i njegovu časnu želju da obnovi predratni ruski budistički hram u Malom Mokrom Lugu. Onda sam letos išao na kozačko groblje na Limnosu, odnosno vodio drugaricu koja vuče ukrajinske kozačke korene iz 1917. Nismo našli njene pretke ali sam video spomenik kozacima gde su imena počivših izlistana po veri - hrišćani, muslimani, budisti. Imam negde i sliku toga, urezalo mi se u sećanje.


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:21 pm



    Nemačka ratna mornarica u 2SR je imala klasu razarača koja se zvala prosto "Z", otuda vrv originalna inspiracija.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:23 pm

    Dobronamerna korekcija: kalmički hram bio je u Budvanskoj ulici, u današnjem Učiteljskom naselju. Koliko znam, ceo Konjarnik je dobio ime baš po Kalmicima i njihovim konjima koje su tu napasali.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:26 pm

    Del Cap wrote:

    Nemačka ratna mornarica u 2SR je imala klasu razarača koja se zvala prosto "Z", otuda vrv originalna inspiracija.

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 27 1399639816
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:28 pm

    kapetanm wrote:Eh kad bi u ovom, kao u bilo kom drugom ratu bilo lako povuci liniju izmedju crnog i belog, tipa vitezovi protiv zla. Imamo punno primera iz blize proslosti

    Meni je sasvim dovoljno tamno sivo vs svetlo sivo.
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:29 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:Dobronamerna korekcija: kalmički hram bio je u Budvanskoj ulici, u današnjem Učiteljskom naselju. Koliko znam, ceo Konjarnik je dobio ime baš po Kalmicima i njihovim konjima koje su tu napasali.

    Jeste, takvu faktografiju sam i ja negde imao ali se stalno u kontekstu obnove hrana pominje MML pa sam u toj konfuziji prezupčio. Ja sam se zamalo ranih devedesetih oženio u ostatke ruske aristokratije izbegle 1917, neke od priča su se prenosile s kolena na koleno pa tako i one o Kalmicima u Beogradu, sakrivenom porodičnom blagu, ludoj babi balerini koju je pregazio tramvaj u Nici (ako tamo uopšte ima tramvaj) i slično. Lud svet.

    EDIT - Kad malo bolje razmislim, MML nije daleko odatle pa verovatno neka simplifikacija gradske geografije.


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    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:30 pm

    Nego hocemo sad 1991-2022 zvati Međuhladnoratni period?
    rumbeando

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    Post by rumbeando Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:32 pm

    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:36 pm

    kondo wrote:
    Cousin Billy wrote:Dobronamerna korekcija: kalmički hram bio je u Budvanskoj ulici, u današnjem Učiteljskom naselju. Koliko znam, ceo Konjarnik je dobio ime baš po Kalmicima i njihovim konjima koje su tu napasali.

    Jeste, takvu faktografiju sam i ja negde imao ali se stalno u kontekstu obnove hrana pominje MML pa sam u toj konfuziji prezupčio. Ja sam se zamalo ranih devedesetih oženio u ostatke ruske aristokratije izbegle 1917, neke od priča su se prenosile s kolena na koleno pa tako i one o Kalmicima u Beogradu, sakrivenom porodičnom blagu, ludoj babi balerini koju je pregazio tramvaj u Nici (ako tamo uopšte ima tramvaj) i slično. Lud svet.

    EDIT - Kad malo bolje razmislim, MML nije daleko odatle pa verovatno neka simplifikacija gradske geografije.

    Sad sam naleteo na podatak da je prvi bogoslužbeni prostor Kalmika i dalje živ i zdrav: kuća u Vojislava Ilića 47 u kojoj su zakupljivali prostor pre nego što je izgrađen hram.

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