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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat Sep 28, 2024 9:27 pm

    boomer crook wrote:naravno da svaka drzava ima neku konstitutivnu traumu. kod grka to moze,  na primer, biti mala azija. samo zapravo niko ili gotovo niko ne drzi da gotovo celokupna spoljna politika te zemlje moze biti opravdana tom traumom. ja da dobijem po dolar svaki put kada mi neko pravda rat u ukrajini 'osecajem ugroznosti' rusije ja bih ako ne milijinas bio svakako vlasnik lepe male garsonjere na dorcolu koju bih izdavao pomenutim rusima. drugim recima jako je opasno kada to postane dominantan nacionalni narativ.

    Opasno je, ali i učinkovito kao narativ. Držanje u stalnom vanrednom stanju, elelment fašizma.

    Btw, nisam (sve vreme) mislio na "konstutivnu" traumu, nego bbaš na 20. vek (ww1 i 2. tj. 2 dedinitivno, ali donekle i 1)
    Јанош Винету

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    Post by Јанош Винету Sat Sep 28, 2024 9:30 pm

    boomer crook wrote:
    Јанош Винету wrote:

    Нема рационалније позиције од ове, као што нам је историја и демографија показала. Идеја да је било који народ безбедан било где у екс-Ју без имплицитне претње насиљем од стране икс-националне државе тог народа или снажне културне, институционалне и финанијске подршке икс-националне државе икс-народа и експлицитних дипломатских или институционалних заштита је имбецилна, као што нам реалност, историја и демографија указују. Народи тј. народни идентитети опстају тамо где имају националну државу или де-факто институције националне државе и тачка. Све испод тога је пут у пропаст, заборав, и гробље једно од стотина племена која су насељавала ове просторе. 

    За ову другу тезу се могу сложити да је стриктно ирационална како год се гледа. Економски у теорији рационалних избора то се назива ефекат изгубљеног трошка. Па и да не гледамо фишкалски, чисто здраворазумски: гинуло се некада за нешто, то нешто није освојено, хајде да гинемо опет за нешто што није наше а и не треба нам.

    mislim da izmedju 'snazna institucionalna zastita' i 'etnicko ciscenje da se obezbedi homogenost teritorije' postoji neka fina linija.

    Па између не остаје много тога лепог осим неке врсте државне интервенције, у зависности од перципиране угрожености своје народне групе и могућности државе саме.


    _____
    Burundi is an exception among other nations because it is a country which gave God first place, a God who guards and protects from all misfortune.
    Burundi... opskurno udruženje 20ak levičarskih intelektualaca, kojima je fetiš odbrana poniženih i uvredjenih.
    Јанош Винету

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    Post by Јанош Винету Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:27 pm

    Иако национална траума и њој придружени осећај угрожености свакако јесте опасан и може да се користи у сврхе агресивног ратовања и може водити у фашизацију друштва путем сталног ванредног стања, свеједно - држава треба да одговори на њега некако на неки начин јер она томе и служи.

    То што Западне државе имају оловку и папир па седну и преговарају и направе Европску Унију, Уједињене Нације и неке дипломатске системе, то не значи да смо ми дошли до тог нивоа.

    Имамо ситуацију да долази до смртних случајевима у пограничним окршајима Индуса и Кинеза, да се потежу мочуге, металне шипке, камење и лопате.

    И они на Западу су врло свесни да су на антрополошком нивоу била потребна масовна клања у Првом и Другом рату. Наполеонови ратови довели су до Метерниха и његовог система европског мира. Тридесетогодишњи рат нисам сигуран до чега је довео, најбесмисленији рат икада. Упади, пограничне чарке, хајдучија, то је стална једна опасност. Али постоји институционални механизам који каже да је лош мир бољи од било каквог продуженог, индустријског рата.

    Међутим, ово што се дешава у Украјини је рат за национални идентитет. То је националистички рат, можда делује апсурдно и вероватно јесте апсурдан али мислим да је Сокс овде у праву.
    То није неки кратки колонијални рат против босоноге гологузије, то је рат за заштиту Руса свуда и свагде, последњи чин симболичког распада СССР - подела на Русе и Украјинце у коме победа Русије представља теодикеју путиновског система, а пораз Русије вероватно неку врсту дебеле националне депресије. Ако изгубе, доћи ће до револуције и корените промене система, распада остатака колонијалног царства, можда и до нових, рускоговорећих република које не би имале центар у Москви.

    Да ли ће се исто догодити и са међународним телима? ЕУ, УН, Савет Безбедности, "плави шлемови", нови СТАРТ и САЛТ договори, Хелсиншки систем међународних односа, неповредивост граница?
    Све је то раније постојало и настало је смислено и са циљем. Да ли је Русија то све полупала и да ли треба градити из почетка светску безбедносну архитектуру, или је ово само аберација? Ко ће зауздати Русију (или треба само сачекати да се издува и ослаби, па је "принудити миру")? Ко ће рећи Израелу не? Куда иде Међународни суд правде? Има ли свести да је промена потребна уопште?


    _____
    Burundi is an exception among other nations because it is a country which gave God first place, a God who guards and protects from all misfortune.
    Burundi... opskurno udruženje 20ak levičarskih intelektualaca, kojima je fetiš odbrana poniženih i uvredjenih.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:44 pm

    Nisu oni stitili Ruse. Da su stitili Ruse zauzeli bi ono gde su nesumnjivo Rusi i rekli aj cao. Oni su krenuli na Kijev.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Sep 29, 2024 12:09 am

    Mislim, postoje jasni dokazi da su krenuli da menjaju vlast (a ne, recimo, da okupiraju prestonicu i diktiraju uslove mira).

    Radi se prosto o tome da Kremaljska vlast vise nije htela da trpi klizanje Ukrajine u zapadnu sferu uticaja. Mislili su da ce ro moci da iskontrolisu drzanjem Donbasa i Krima i da onda menadzuju to statusom Donbasa. Nije uspelo jer Kijev nije zeleo takav ustavni aranzman gde bi Donbas imao takvu ulogu.

    Druga stvar, to im nije prvi put. Ima Abhazija, ima Pridnjestrovlje... Jednostavno hoce "blisko inostranstvo" kao svoju S.o.I. Nema to nikakve veze sa "ugrozenoscu". Ko ce da napadne zemlju sa 6k nukl. bojevih glava? Besmisleno.
    avatar

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    Post by MNE Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:25 am

    Nektivni Ugnelj wrote: Ko ce da napadne zemlju sa 6k nukl. bojevih glava? Besmisleno.
    pa eto Ukrajina će, doduše u samoodbrani ali za 20-30 godina smislio bi se i neki drugi izgovor
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Sep 30, 2024 6:54 am

    Ma de. Da ih je ovako kao kod Belgoroda napala, a bez ikakvog razloga tj bez ruskog napada prethodno, neka Nato zemlja, vec bismo gledali spektakl.
    Nim Chimpsky

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    Post by Nim Chimpsky Mon Sep 30, 2024 8:55 am

    Jel moze da se promeni naslov teme u rat u rusiji?
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Sep 30, 2024 8:59 am

    Nim Chimpsky wrote:Jel moze da se promeni naslov teme u rat u rusiji?

    Украјински рат, може да се води где хоћеш.

    Ствар перспективе, вијетнамски рат се у Вијетнаму не зове само рат, него амерички рат.


    _____
       cousin for roasting the rakija
       зрењанинска клима је идеална - кад има блата, нема прашине, кад има прашине, нема снега, а кад има снега нема блата.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:02 am

    Rat koji nema granice
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:12 am

    Где је украјински рат, ту су украјинске земље.


    _____
       cousin for roasting the rakija
       зрењанинска клима је идеална - кад има блата, нема прашине, кад има прашине, нема снега, а кад има снега нема блата.
    Nim Chimpsky

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    Post by Nim Chimpsky Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:17 am

    Podnaslov Ukrajina napala rusiju.
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Tue Oct 01, 2024 9:54 pm

    FT:

    Ukraine faces its darkest hour
    Returning home from the US, Zelenskyy faces Russian advances, an exhausted society and the prospect of winter energy shortages


    In a command post near the embattled eastern Ukrainian city of Pokrovsk, soldiers of the Separate Presidential Brigade bemoan the dithering in Washington about whether Kyiv can use western missiles to strike targets inside Russia.
    If only they were able to fight “with both hands instead of with one hand tied behind our back”, then Ukraine’s plucky troops might stand a chance against a more powerful Russian army, laments an attack drone operator.
    Surrounded by video monitors showing the advancing enemy, the battalion’s commander says his objectives have begun to shift.

    “Right now, I’m thinking more about how to save my people,” says Mykhailo Temper. “It’s quite hard to imagine we will be able to move the enemy back to the borders of 1991,” he adds, referring to his country’s aim of restoring its full territorial integrity.
    Once buoyed by hopes of liberating their lands, even soldiers at the front now voice a desire for negotiations with Russia to end the war.

    Yuriy, another commander on the eastern front who gave only his first name, says he fears the prospect of a “forever war”. “I am for negotiations now,” he adds, expressing his concern that his son — also a soldier — could spend much of his life fighting and that his grandson might one day inherit an endless conflict.
    “If the US turns off the spigot, we’re finished,” says another officer, a member of the 72nd Mechanised Brigade, in nearby Kurakhove.
    Ukraine is heading into what may be its darkest moment of the war so far. It is losing on the battlefield in the east of the country, with Russian forces advancing relentlessly — albeit at immense cost in men and equipment.

    It is struggling to restore its depleted ranks with motivated and well-trained soldiers while an arbitrary military mobilisation system is causing real social tension. It is also facing a bleak winter of severe power and potentially heating outages.
    “Society is exhausted,” says Oleksandr Merezhko, chair of the foreign affairs committee of the Ukrainian parliament.

    At the same time, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is under growing pressure from western partners to find a path towards a negotiated settlement, even if there is scepticism about Russia’s willingness to enter talks any time soon and concern that Ukraine’s position is too weak to secure a fair deal right now. “Most players want de-escalation here,” says a senior Ukrainian official in Kyiv.

    The Biden administration is aware that its present strategy is not sustainable because “we are losing the war”, says Jeremy Shapiro, head of the Washington office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. “They are thinking of how to move that war to a greater quiescence.”

    Most threatening of all for Kyiv is the possibility that Donald Trump wins next month’s US presidential election and tries to impose an unfavourable peace deal on Ukraine by threatening to withhold further military and financial aid. Trump repeated his claim last week that he could rapidly bring an end to the war.
    Ukraine’s staunchest supporters in Europe may wish to keep it in the fight but lack the weapons stockpiles to do so and have no plan for filling any void left by the US.

    Kyiv confirmed it was laying the groundwork for future talks in spectacular fashion when its troops seized a swath of Russia’s Kursk region in a surprise cross-border incursion in August. Zelenskyy said the land would serve as a bargaining chip.

    And last week, in an attempt to shape the thinking of his allies, Zelenskyy visited the US to market his so-called “victory plan”, a formula for bolstering Ukraine’s position before possible talks with Moscow. Zelenskyy described it as a “strategy of achieving peace through strength”.

    Stepping into the maelstrom of the US election campaign, he held separate talks with President Joe Biden, vice-president Kamala Harris and her Republican opponent, Trump, to make his case.
    At one point, Zelenskyy’s US mission veered towards disaster after he was criticised by Trump for resisting peace talks and censured by senior Republicans for visiting a weapons factory in the crucial swing state of Pennsylvania accompanied only by Democratic politicians. But in the end, he persuaded Trump to grant him an audience and salvaged his visit.

    “It was not a triumph. It was not a catastrophe,” the senior Ukrainian official says of Zelenskyy’s US trip. “It would be naive to expect the applause we got two years ago,” the official adds, referring to the president’s address before Congress in December 2022, for which he received multiple standing ovations and declared that Ukraine would “never surrender”.

    Yet the Ukrainian leader left Washington empty-handed on two central issues: US permission to use western weapons for long-range strikes on Russian territory; and progress on Ukraine’s bid to join Nato. The Biden administration has resisted both, fearing it could encourage Moscow to escalate the conflict, potentially drawing in the US and other allies.

    US officials were unimpressed by Zelenskyy’s “victory plan”, which includes requests for massive amounts of western weaponry.
    An adviser who helped prepare the document says Zelenskyy had no choice but to restate his insistence on Nato membership because anything else would have been perceived as a retreat on the question of western security guarantees, which Ukrainians see as indispensable.

    Despite Washington’s misgivings, the ability to strike Russian territory is also central to Zelenskyy’s victory plan, says the adviser. While US officials have argued that Russia has already moved strike aircraft beyond the range of western missiles, Ukrainian officials insist there are plenty of other targets such as command centres, weapons caches, fuel depots and logistics nodes.

    Destroying them could disrupt Moscow’s ability to wage war, show Russian leader Vladimir Putin that his objectives of seizing at least four whole provinces of Ukraine are untenable and disprove his conviction that the west will lose interest in supporting Ukraine.
    “Russia should not be overestimated,” says Andris Sprūds, Latvia’s defence minister. “It has its vulnerabilities.”

    Although Zelenskyy’s victory plan restated old objectives, its real significance is that it shifts Ukraine’s war aims from total liberation to bending the war in Kyiv’s favour, says the senior Ukrainian official.
    “It’s an attempt to change the trajectory of the war and bring Russia to the table. Zelenskyy really believes in it.”

    Multiple European diplomats who attended last week’s UN General Assembly in New York say there was a tangible shift in the tone and content of discussions around a potential settlement.
    They note more openness from Ukrainian officials to discuss the potential for agreeing a ceasefire even while Russian troops remain on their territory, and more frank discussions among western officials about the urgency for a deal.

    Ukraine’s new foreign minister, Andrii Sybiha, used private meetings with western counterparts on his first trip to the US in the post to discuss potential compromise solutions, the diplomats said, and struck a more pragmatic tone on the possibility of land-for-security negotiations than his predecessor.
    “We’re talking more and more openly about how this ends and what Ukraine would have to give up in order to get a permanent peace deal,” says one of the diplomats, who was present in New York. “And that’s a major change from even six months ago, when this kind of talk was taboo.”

    The Ukrainian foreign ministry said: “No territorial compromises were suggested, discussed, or even hinted at during any of the meetings.”
    Ukrainian public opinion also appears to be more open to peace talks — but not necessarily to the concessions they may require.

    Polling by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology for the National Democratic Institute in the summer showed that 57 per cent of respondents thought Ukraine should engage in peace negotiations with Russia, up from 33 per cent a year earlier.

    The survey showed the war was taking an ever heavier toll: 77 per cent of respondents reported the loss of family members, friends or acquaintances, four times as many as two years earlier. Two-thirds said they were finding it difficult or very difficult to live on their wartime income.

    Life is about to get even tougher. Russia has destroyed at least half of Ukraine’s power-generating capacity after it resumed mass drone and missile strikes against power stations and grid infrastructure this spring.
    Ukraine faces a “severe” electricity deficit of up to 6GW, equivalent to a third of peak winter demand, according the International Energy Agency. It is increasingly dependent on its three remaining operational nuclear power plants, the IEA noted. Were Russia to attack substations adjacent to these plants — despite all the obvious dangers — it could cause Ukraine’s power system to collapse, and with it heating and water supply. Central heating facilities in large cities such as Kharkiv and Kyiv are also vulnerable.

    Another source of tension is mobilisation. Under new legislation, millions of Ukrainian men have been compelled to register for possible service or face hefty fines. At the same time, many Ukrainians know of men who have been randomly stopped at metro or train stations, often late at night, and carted off to mobilisation centres, a brief period of training and then the front line.

    “It is perceived as abusive, worse than if you are a criminal, where there is at least due process,” says Hlib Vyshlinksy, director of the Centre for Economic Strategy in Kyiv. “It tears people apart. The real enemy is Russia, but at the same time they fear a corrupt, abusive enrolment office doing the wrong thing.”

    If Ukrainians have warmed to the idea of negotiations, a majority — 55 per cent according to a KIIS polling in May — remain opposed to any formal cession of territory as part of a peace deal.
    “People want peace but they are also against territorial concessions. It is hard to reconcile them,” says Merezhko, the chair of the foreign affairs committee.

    However, the KIIS survey shows the share of respondents opposed to any territorial concessions has dropped sharply from a peak of 87 per cent early last year. It also found that Ukrainians might be open to a compromise whereby, in return for Ukrainian membership of Nato, Russian maintains de facto control over occupied parts of Ukraine, but not recognised sovereignty.


    Other polls suggest Ukrainians are still confident of winning and will be disappointed by anything other than total battlefield victory. The biggest domestic problem for Zelenskyy might come from a nationalist minority opposed to any compromise, some of whom are now armed and trained to fight.


    “If you get into any negotiation, it could be a trigger for social instability,” says a Ukrainian official. “Zelenskyy knows this very well.”
    “There will always be a radical segment of Ukrainian society that will call any negotiation capitulation. The far right in Ukraine is growing. The right wing is a danger to democracy,” says Merezhko, who is an MP for Zelenskyy’s Servant of the People party.

    As the KIIS polling shows, making any deal acceptable that allows Russia to stay in the parts of Ukraine it has seized since its first invasion in 2014 will hinge on obtaining meaningful western security guarantees, which for Kyiv means Nato membership.

    “The most important thing for us is security guarantees. Proper ones. Otherwise it won’t end the war; it will just trigger another one,” says a Ukrainian official.
    “Land for [Nato] membership is the only game in town, everyone knows it,” says one senior western official. “Nobody will say it out loud . . . but it’s the only strategy on the table.”

    Nato membership remains Ukraine’s key goal, but very few of the alliance’s 32 members think it is possible without a full, lasting ceasefire and a defined line on the map that determines what portion of Ukraine’s territory the alliance’s mutual defence clause applies to. The model floated by some is West Germany’s membership of the alliance, which lasted more than three decades before the fall of the Berlin Wall and reunification with the east.

    “The West German model is gaining traction particularly in the White House, which has been the most sceptical about Nato membership,” says Shapiro of the ECFR. “The Russians would hate that, but at least it could be some opening gambit for a compromise.”

    But even that would require a vast force deployment by the US and its partners that any US administration, Democratic or Republican, would probably balk at, given Washington’s focus on the threat from China. One question would be whether European powers would be willing to shoulder more of the burden.

    And would Russia accept Ukraine’s entry into the alliance, an alignment with the west it has been trying to thwart militarily for a decade? Many on both sides of the Atlantic say it is unlikely.

    “I don’t think Russia would agree to our participation in Nato,” says a senior Ukrainian official.

    Anything short of full membership is unlikely to be enough to stop the Kremlin’s military aggression. “Even if we get a Nato invitation, it will mean nothing. It’s a political decision,” adds the senior Ukrainian official.
    In what could be his last trip to Europe before standing down as president, Biden will chair a meeting of Ukraine and its allies in Germany on October 12.

    A western official briefed on Zelenskyy’s talks in Washington said there were tentative signs that Biden might agree to advance the status of Ukraine’s Nato membership bid before he leaves office in January.

    As he left the US this weekend, Zelenskyy said that October would be “decision time”. The Ukrainian leader will once again plead for permission to hit targets inside Russia with western-supplied munitions, knowing that it is one of the few options for bringing hostilities to an end.

    “It’s about constraining Russia’s capabilities” and piling on pressure to get them to open talks, says the senior Ukrainian official. “It’s a real chance if we are thinking about resolving this war.”
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:28 am

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/10/04/putin-abandons-peace-talks-seeks-to-destroy-ukrainian-state-after-kursk-incursion-report-a86561

    Sox

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    Post by Sox Sun Oct 06, 2024 11:36 am

    Tekst ima kontradiktornosti ali sa obzirom na izvor to nije ni cudno, posto je Radio Slobodna Evropa pojam nepristrasnosti za moscowtimes sto se tice pisanja o Rusiji. Vise mi lici na neku upozoravajucu poruku.
    Ali bih se slozio sa nekim iznetim stavovima poput: Putina vise zanima samit Briksa u Kazanju nego da resi situaciju u Kursku. Uostalom, ako zeli duzi rat njemu trebaju Ukrajinci u Kursku, malo uz granicu. Samo da ih svede na teritoriju koju Rusi drze severno od Harkova, a to se polagano desava.

    Nije to samo rat i unistavanje Ukrajine. Pogledajte privredu Rusije i Evrope, pre svega Nemacke ali ni u Francuskoj, Italiji i Britaniji ne cvetaju ruze.  Rusija ove godine rast 3-4%. Sa druge strane Nemci, Francuzi, Italijani, Britanci 0-1%, nijedna od nabrojanih, po vec sada prilicno jasnim progonozama za 2024, poslednje je tromescje, nece preci 1% a  neka od nabrojanih mozda bude minimalno negativna.

    Secam se kada je Rusija otvorena usla u Ukrajinu 2022 serija emisija na RTS gde su dovodili ekonomske strucnjake, ali i drugih fela, kako ce Rusija ekonomski da pukne i to je trebao da bude najveci problem za Rusiju po njima.
    Evo prodjose tri godine ali se desava obrnuto.

    U stvari, sva predvidjanja iz februara i marta 2022 se uglavnom nisu obistinila.

    A sto se tice prevara od strane zapada tj. Kijeva, to ce se nastaviti jer zudnja je velika-Fox news, Taker, CNN, Suma sveta...za svakog po nesto.

    Dobro je to sumirano u sledecem muzickom delu





    Ja bih je nazvao Himnom Istocne Evrope ali i dalje na istok i jug, sto da ne.

    Retko potcenjena pesma!
    Nim Chimpsky

    Posts : 251
    Join date : 2024-06-04

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    Post by Nim Chimpsky Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:07 pm

    Odavno se ne prica o ukrajinskim nacistima. Jesu li unisteni neobanderaski odredi i je li sad ukrajinska vojska cista od nacista za razliku od ruske koja ih je puna?
    boomer crook

    Posts : 37439
    Join date : 2014-10-27

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    Post by boomer crook Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:10 pm

    dugo nisam nista citao ni o usponu AfD.


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    One Eyed Bob

    Posts : 2214
    Join date : 2015-08-13

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    Post by One Eyed Bob Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:19 pm

    Svakako da Putin želi što duži rat, jasno je da je to od početka bila ideja, pokušaj udara na Kijev sa onom kolonom koja je porazila samu sebe bio je samo taktička varka. Ukrajinci u Kursku su dabome pripušteni na rusku teritoriju, i to je sasvim uobičajeno, da želiš da ti neprijatelj uđe u zemlju i tu uspostavi okupacionu zonu. Rus je to, oni sve to imaju planirano u svojim doktrinama, imaju i mast koju namažeš pa ti izraste kosa, ruka, šta god da nemaš, burp hik.


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    Gdje punac drži pive?
    Daï Djakman Faré

    Posts : 8270
    Join date : 2014-10-28
    Location : imamate of futa djallon

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    Post by Daï Djakman Faré Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:20 pm

    boomer crook wrote:dugo nisam nista citao ni o usponu AfD.
    ne zajebavaj Rat u Ukrajini - Page 34 1233199462


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    i would like to talk here about The Last of Us on HBO... and yeah, yeah i know.. the world is burning but lets just all sit and talk about television. again - what else are we doing with ourselves ? we are not creating any militias. but my god we still have the content. appraising content is the american modus vivendi.. that's why we are here for. to absorb the content and then render some sort of a judgment on content. because there is a buried hope that if enough people have the right opinion about the content - the content will get better which will then flow to our structures and make the world a better place
    Sox

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2024-06-10

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    Post by Sox Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:48 pm

    One Eyed Bob wrote:Svakako da Putin želi što duži rat, jasno je da je to od početka bila ideja, pokušaj udara na Kijev sa onom kolonom koja je porazila samu sebe bio je samo taktička varka. Ukrajinci u Kursku su dabome pripušteni na rusku teritoriju, i to je sasvim uobičajeno, da želiš da ti neprijatelj uđe u zemlju i tu uspostavi okupacionu zonu. Rus je to, oni sve to imaju planirano u svojim doktrinama, imaju i mast koju namažeš pa ti izraste kosa, ruka, šta god da nemaš, burp hik.

    Primecujem blagu ironiju u napisanom sa kojom se slazem 100%.
    Plan Kremlja je bio potpuno suprotan: sok i brzi zavrsetak rata po Minskim principima federalizacije Ukrajine bez Krima. Plan zapada je isto bio suprotan od ovoga sto se desava.
    Ali desilo se da mogu da dobiju mnogo vise ali Taker Karlson ih sputava, mnogo je tesko razbiti prepreke u razmisljanju, ceo model sveta se rusi onda a ti rodjen u XX veku, volis blokove, volis igru, plasise se novog, mozda izgubis Bitlse ili Sumu sveta, mozda nece biti Breda Pita i Marlona Branda, drugara Metalke ii Ledi Gage. A to je strasna pomisao. Samo razmislite.

    AFD, FPO ili Vilders su posledica losih procena sopstvene i tudje snage ali nema briga, suprotna strana je uvek bila blagonaklana i cenila je "zapadne" vrednosti. Tako da bez brige, zapad ce tradicionalno pokazati svoje vrednosti kroz neki AFD ili FPO. U stvari to vec vidimo malo juznije ali bice toga jos.
    fikret selimbašić

    Posts : 10274
    Join date : 2020-06-19

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:04 pm

    Sox wrote:

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 34 19450980


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    Međuopštinski pustolov.

    Zli stolar.
    Sox

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2024-06-10

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    Post by Sox Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:10 pm

    Јанош Винету

    Posts : 5509
    Join date : 2016-01-26

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    Post by Јанош Винету Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:01 pm

    Апсолутно све се десило контра онога што су предвиђали.

    Предвидели су да ће Руси да се ушетају, да ће их дочекати као ослободиоце. Нису.
    Предвидели су да ће Украјинци да пруже минималан отпор. Пружили су максималан, надчовечански отпор.
    Мислили су да овај рат није популаран у Русији, да су то само плаћеници. Нису.
    Предвиђали су да ће супериорно руско наоружање, спецназ, авијација и артиљерија решити ствар. Спецназ је изгинуо у првим данима операције, артиљерија није решила ствар. Авијација пада као крушке, а учинак јој је минималан.
    Предвиђали су слом руске привреде. Није се десио.
    Предвиђали су протесте у Украјини, слом привреде. Није се десило.

    Предвиђали су успех јужне украјинске контраофанзиве. Десио се дебакл, Руси их сачекали и одбили са великим губицима.

    Нико није очекивао феноменалан успех Украјинаца код Изјума.
    Нико није очекивао успех код Курска, где већ два месеца Руси не могу да избаце Украјинце из Курске области.
    Нико није очекивао дебакл код Херсона, где су Руси морали да се повлаче јер су им линије снабдевања пресечене дроновима и далекометном артиљеријом.
    Нико није очекивао да ће и Руси и Украјинци да залегну и да бију одсудну борбу.
    Нико није очекивао толики непојмљив распад руске војске, као и други и трећи талас мобилизације.
    Нико није очекивао дронове и електронско ратовање.

    Верујте да ни сами Украјинци нису знали да могу да одбију руски напад. Овај рат је дебело изненађење за све.


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    Burundi is an exception among other nations because it is a country which gave God first place, a God who guards and protects from all misfortune.
    Burundi... opskurno udruženje 20ak levičarskih intelektualaca, kojima je fetiš odbrana poniženih i uvredjenih.
    Erős Pista

    Posts : 82462
    Join date : 2012-06-10

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    Post by Erős Pista Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:12 pm

    Sta je Suma sveta? Sad i meni fale dijakritike. :pace:


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    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    паће

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    Location : wife supremacist

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    Post by паће Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:20 pm

    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 34 Samo_v12


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       cousin for roasting the rakija
       зрењанинска клима је идеална - кад има блата, нема прашине, кад има прашине, нема снега, а кад има снега нема блата.

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