Rat u Ukrajini

Јанош Винету wrote:То је пропало па је намерно дошло до повлачења и артиљерског изнуривања, све док Химарс није изједначио предност Руса у артиљерији.

Del Cap wrote:Kačim tekst ne zato što je u celini važan nego zato što nagoveštava (iz anonimnih ruskih vojnih izvora) jedan moguć tip ruskih ofanzivnih akcija (ukoliko su za to uopšte sposobni) koje se zapravo uklapaju u dugoročni rat i strategiju odustajanja od okupacije cele ili većine zemlje i svrgavanja vlasti (dakle računa se sa budućim ostatkom Ukrajine kao dugoročnim neprijateljem). Uklapaju se i u ovo što Ukrajinci sada govore (mogući novi napad ka Kijevu). 
A koncept je na liniji rejderskih provala i sjebavanja važne infrastrukture usput koji treba da uspostave novu široku zonu razdvajanja, bez želje da se drži teritorija i da se pridobijaju hearts and minds lokalaca, dakle jeza:

Caveat: načitao sam se xyz ruskih "planova" o svemu i svačemu pa i ovo uzimam sa kutlačom soli, no eto.

http://johnhelmer.net/ukraine-armistice-how-the-udz-of-2023-will-separate-the-armies-like-the-korean-dmz-of-1953/

...
The Kherson manoeuvre, announced  by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and General Sergei Surovikin on November 9; the electric war campaign  which has followed*; and the cutoff of troops, arms and supplies by train from Kiev to the eastern front, first announced by the Russian Defense Ministry on November 24,  foreshadow how the military are preparing to establish the Ukrainian Demilitarized Zone (UDZ), its depth to the west of the Dnieper River, and the cities to be included in Russian-controlled territory.

This is a future to be established by the Russian General Staff, negotiated and signed by military officers of the NATO-controlled commands in Kiev and Lvov. The outcome is an end to  hostilities with an armistice that is not a peace treaty.

The model is the armistice of Panmunjom of July 27, 1953, which ended the Korean War. The terms of the armistice took two years to negotiate by US, Korean and Chinese officers. The Korean demilitarized zone (DMZ) which was the outcome was four kilometres in depth. The Ukrainian demilitarized zone (UDZ) will be up to one hundred kilometres in depth, depending on the range of the US and NATO missile and artillery weapons deployed on the Kiev side of the Dnieper.  On the ground inside the UDZ there may be no electricity, no people, nothing except for the means to monitor and enforce the terms of the armistice.
...
One Moscow source: “I cannot see Russians risking massive armoured movements or repeating their March manoeuvres. I believe the General Staff will wage the electricity war and put pressure on Kiev and on Europe while continuing a slow, inch-by-inch movement in Donbass. General Patience is more important than General Winter. Those two are on a par with General Iskander taking out electric substations and transport corridors. Putin will only come under pressure if he puts himself under pressure to take territory and takes thousands of casualties in the process. He does not want this. The General Staff does not want this. They have made this explicitly clear. So they have come up with new forms of warfare. Just how new these are hasn’t dawned yet in Kiev or Washington or Brussels.”

This is not positional warfare by Russian forces, all sources agree. But the outcome of highly mobile deployments (known as РЕЙД – “reyd” – in Russian military terminology) will be geographical.

The РЕЙД will consist of several heavy armoured spearheads with the objective of occupying and destroying enemy logistical hubs and transportation routes as well as any infrastructure. This will include whatever remains of the Ukrainian electrical grid in the target zone. Once the destruction of these targets has been completed, the remnants of the infrastructure will be mined, and the area planted with sensing devices. The armies will then begin a rapid, staged withdrawal behind Russian lines where the process of fortification and entrenchment has already begun.”

“Civilians and disarmed Ukrainian troops – except for the Ukro-Nazi units — will be allotted one or two corridors through which they will be permitted to leave the zone. They’d better not dawdle.”

The sources agree there will be a new military demarcation line before the thaw next spring; they differ on how it is being drawn now, and how it will look next April. “For now the line will be on the Dnieper with the zone extending from the west bank into the rump Ukraine – my guess is at a depth of not less than 100km. This will put Russian territory out of the range of most Ukrainian artillery. A 100km-deep zone will also give the Russian forces time to detect and intercept anything in flight. In the central sector, Kherson City will remain without population for an as yet undecided period. For as long as this lasts, the city is likely to be part of the zone rather than part of Russian territory. Time and armistice negotiations may change that.”

“In the northern sector – that’s from Kramatorsk and Slovyansk to Kharkov, then northwestward to Sumy and Chernigov – these are garrisons and staging areas of hate on or near to Russia’s borders; they will not be spared. It’s lights out for them. They made their decision in February-March and during the pull-back last spring. The shelling, sabotage, and other attacks on Bryansk, Belgorod and Kursk have qualified them for de-electrification, de-population, and de-nazification.”

“The point to emphasize, especially in the Russian operations in the north, is that they will be РЕЙД operations – they will not seize and hold territory. The penetrations will be deep, but not as deep as last February-March. This time they will include a massive security element,  including drones and infantry support. The idea won’t be to occupy the territory, let alone administer it, for any length of time. The goal will be to destroy enemies who raise their heads and the infrastructure they rely on; lay mines and sensors; and then withdraw.”

“Once the assigned transportation and logistics nodes have been taken, the job of destroying them by engineer units will begin. Bridges, roads, railroads, marshalling yards, rolling stock, airfields, fuel storage and dispensaries, electrical substations, transmission and communications towers, central offices, warehouses, laydown areas,  agricultural equipment – anything that could possibly be used to support the Ukrainian-NATO effort east of the zone’s western border will be destroyed. That will be also be the ground forces’ job – more comprehensive and thorough than missile and drone strikes can achieve.”

“Civilians and disarmed fighters, without their motorized equipment, will be permitted to walk out of the zone to specially prepared buses (as Surovikin supervised in Syria) with whatever they can carry on their backs.
...

Mór Thököly wrote:

Da da, znam jednog takvog. Ok, nije bas otisao na  tenku, nego u SUV-iju, ali dobro, slicno je.

Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:

Del Cap wrote:Kačim tekst ne zato što je u celini važan nego zato što nagoveštava (iz anonimnih ruskih vojnih izvora) jedan moguć tip ruskih ofanzivnih akcija (ukoliko su za to uopšte sposobni) koje se zapravo uklapaju u dugoročni rat i strategiju odustajanja od okupacije cele ili većine zemlje i svrgavanja vlasti (dakle računa se sa budućim ostatkom Ukrajine kao dugoročnim neprijateljem). Uklapaju se i u ovo što Ukrajinci sada govore (mogući novi napad ka Kijevu). 
A koncept je na liniji rejderskih provala i sjebavanja važne infrastrukture usput koji treba da uspostave novu široku zonu razdvajanja, bez želje da se drži teritorija i da se pridobijaju hearts and minds lokalaca, dakle jeza:

Caveat: načitao sam se xyz ruskih "planova" o svemu i svačemu pa i ovo uzimam sa kutlačom soli, no eto.

http://johnhelmer.net/ukraine-armistice-how-the-udz-of-2023-will-separate-the-armies-like-the-korean-dmz-of-1953/

Moscow loves to show off. Re-offensive, Kyiv capture, landing on Mars. Corrupt imperialists gratify their egos in corridors of Kremlin, giving orders to the military. But there is a problem ru-generals do not tell about: these plans cannot be implemented. Ukrainians won’t allow.

— Михайло Подоляк (@Podolyak_M) December 16, 2022

Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:Ma to sa Rusima koji idu na Kijev je stilska figura, ko kad ti kažeš da u Hrvatsku jedino na tenku možeš da odeš..

Јанош Винету wrote:Ја му не верујем ништа али то што је прошли пут рекао се обистинило. Вероватно ће бити баш тако као што је рекао.

Filipenko wrote:Pa dobro klasika, malo najavis partizanski rat, malo kontru kod X u junu a Y u julu, mesec dana kasnije kontru kod Z i W, pa onda kategoricki tvrdis da ce u avgustu kontra kod A i odbrana kod B. I onda kada kontra usledi kod B, a kod A bude uspesna odbrana, krenese da primas masovne cestitke jer si sve bio u pravu.

fikret selimbašić wrote:

Filipenko wrote:Pa dobro klasika, malo najavis partizanski rat, malo kontru kod X u junu a Y u julu, mesec dana kasnije kontru kod Z i W, pa onda kategoricki tvrdis da ce u avgustu kontra kod A i odbrana kod B. I onda kada kontra usledi kod B, a kod A bude uspesna odbrana, krenese da primas masovne cestitke jer si sve bio u pravu.

Jebiga, kao kontru Andurilu smo imali brzi slom ukrajinske armije, hvatanje njihove glavnine u Donbasu u kotao, onda gest dobre volje u vidu povlačenja sa sjevera, zatim plansko formiranje fronta na istoku a tu će ih Rusi samljeti najkasnije do juna, Poljsku koja uskoro ulijeće u Ukrajinu da sa Rusima odradi posal sličan onom koji su Nijemci i Sovjeti odradili u jesen '39. USA i NATO ostaju bez municije i prekidaju pomoć Ukrajincima, gladnu i smrznutu Evropu...

Od svega ovog ništa nije bilo, od onoga što je Anduril pisao, ostvarila se većina. Inače, od marta-aprila, jedini kojima prilično vjerujem su Britanci.

Notxor wrote:Ja se ne sećam da je ovde neko o ruskom povlačenju pisao drugačije nego kao o porazu.
Inače, pozdravljam memento - i dalje mislim isto što i tad, a to je da rat treba što pre da prestane, ali mislim da za to nema šanse -  Ukrajina je postala kasarna, a Rusija ratna ekonomija.
...
au kakav fudbal, šou.

Solus_Rex wrote:Posle šest godina ukopavanja na red je stiglo i raskopavanje Hauptstraße:

The Ukrainian military put the number of civilians remaining in Bakhmut at 10K of 71K pre-war population. These are elderly/infirm people and those waiting for Russian “liberation”.

This report also mentions 300 children and teens remaining in the area. https://t.co/H9zBYmDbXC

— Leonid ХВ Ragozin (@leonidragozin) December 17, 2022