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by rumbeando Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:09 amIt all depends on the how the question was phrased. Here is what the people were asked (translation by @deepLcom). pic.twitter.com/jXm3G4A3KV
— Christian Odendahl (@COdendahl) July 15, 2022
Rat u Ukrajini
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lol die linke & afd.
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And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/17/putin-is-already-at-war-with-europe-there-is-only-one-way-to-stop-him?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1658043062
Putin is already at war with Europe. There is only one way to stop him
Simon Tisdall
He has weaponised food, energy and refugees, spreading economic and political pain across the continent. Sanctions don’t work, a land for peace deal would be a disaster. Only the military route remains.
Time to wake up and smell the cordite. Like shockwaves from an exploding missile, Vladimir Putin’s war on Europe’s edge is rapidly rolling westwards, blasting its way through the front doors of homes, businesses and workplaces from Berlin to Birmingham. Its fallout seeds a toxic rain of instability, hardship and fear.
The idea the Ukraine conflict could be confined to Ukraine – Nato’s politically convenient grand delusion – and that western sanctions and arms supplies would stop the Russians was always a nonsense. Now, enraged by Kyiv’s stubborn resistance and hell-bent on punishing his punishers, Putin’s aim is the immiseration of Europe.
By weaponising energy, food, refugees and information, Russia’s leader spreads the economic and political pain, creating wartime conditions for all. A long, cold, calamity-filled European winter of power shortages and turmoil looms. And like a coin-fed gas meter, the price of western leaders’ timidity and shortsightedness ticks upwards by the hour.
Russia’s destabilisation operations, social media manipulation, cyber-attacks, diplomatic double-talk, nuclear blackmail, plus its unrelenting slaughter of civilians in Ukraine, will only intensify Europe’s state of siege in the months ahead. The west’s fanciful belief it could avoid continent-wide escalation is evaporating fast.
Though not entirely due to Putin’s war, Europe now faces fundamental challenges as big or bigger than the 2008 financial crash, Brexit, or the pandemic. Yet many EU and UK politicians skulk in denial. If, as predicted, the gas stops flowing and the lights dim, it will not just be a matter of closed factories, lost jobs, and depressed markets.
Freezing pensioners, hungry children, empty supermarket shelves, unaffordable cost of living increases, devalued wages, strikes and street protests point to Sri Lanka-style meltdowns. An exaggeration? Not really. Blowback, fanned by the Putin-admiring far right, is already gathering strength in Greece and Italy, the Netherlands and Spain.
In prospect, too, is a shattering of EU solidarity as national governments compete for scarce resources. Brussels is due to publish a “winter preparedness plan” this week. But its provisions are unclear and unenforceable. The broader context is lack of an agreed, implemented EU-wide energy policy.
Despite bilateral cooperation pledges, a total Russian cut-off could pit country against country, further inflate prices, and split the anti-Moscow coalition. In such a scenario Putin would demand sanctions relief in return for resumed supplies, just as he has over blockaded Black Sea grain.
Import-dependent Germany is already taking unilateral steps, seeking alternative oil and gas suppliers. A national emergency moved closer after Moscow turned off the Nord Stream I pipeline last Monday. Many in Berlin fear (and some environmentalists hope) the shutdown – and any subsequent rationing – may become permanent.
Robert Habeck, Germany’s vice-chancellor, fretted publicly about a “political nightmare”. Bruno Le Maire, France’s finance minister, sounded similarly panicky last week. He predicted an imminent gas cut-off. Waxing Napoleonic, he urged European countries to form up in “order of battle”. But as in 1812, Russia has “General Winter”.
As if the mounting misery of millions were not daunting enough, then consider, too, the war’s knock-on impact on efforts to combat the climate and biodiversity crises. In the UK and elsewhere, net zero targets appear at increasing risk of being abandoned.
Because Europe faces “very, very strong conflict and strife” this winter over energy prices, it should make a short-term return to fossil fuels, Frans Timmermans, the European commission’s vice-president, suggested. Once again, Germany is showing a lead, increasing electricity production from coal-fired power stations. Once again, the west looks to tyrannical Gulf oil sheikhs for salvation.
A European winter of chaos may also strain US ties. By comparison, America’s post-pandemic recovery is more advanced, its economy more resilient, its energy costs much lower. Yet it is US president Joe Biden’s too-cautious leadership of Nato that has led Europe into this geopolitical cul-de-sac, even as a weakening euro slides below one dollar.
For Europeans, as they are re-learning to their cost, all wars are local. For Americans, as ever, all wars are foreign.
The sanctions, economic aid, and other non-military measures preferred by Biden were never going to be enough to bring Putin to heel. Some observers suspect a stalemate that slowly bleeds Russia suits US purposes, whatever the collateral damage. Yet right now, it’s Putin who is bleeding Europe. Sanctions are backfiring or poorly enforced. His energy coffers bulge. And Ukrainians aside, the pain is disproportionately felt by less wealthy European and developing countries. As instability grows, US-Europe divergence will feed pressure to change course.
The obvious escape route is a land-for-peace deal with Putin, agreed over Ukraine’s dead bodies. This kind of shoddy sellout has influential advocates. If (and it’s a big “if”), Russia returned to business as normal, it would alleviate Europe’s suffering – though probably not Ukraine’s.
Yet such a deal would also be a precedent-setting disaster for future peace and security across the continent and globally, too. Just think Taiwan. Or Estonia. It would destroy the sovereign integrity of democratic Ukraine.
Fortunately, there is an alternative: using Nato’s overwhelming power to decisively turn the military tide.
As previously argued here, direct, targeted, forceful western action to repulse Russia’s repulsive horde is not a vote for a third world war. It’s the only feasible way to bring this escalating horror to a swift conclusion while ensuring Putin, and those who might emulate him, do not profit from lawless butchery.
Intent on inflicting maximum disruption, Putin openly menaces the heartlands of European democracy. The writing is on the wall and may no longer be ignored. Enough of the half-measures and the dithering! Nato should act now to force Putin’s marauding troops back inside Russia’s recognised borders.
It’s not only Ukraine that requires saving. It’s Europe, too.
Putin is already at war with Europe. There is only one way to stop him
Simon Tisdall
He has weaponised food, energy and refugees, spreading economic and political pain across the continent. Sanctions don’t work, a land for peace deal would be a disaster. Only the military route remains.
Time to wake up and smell the cordite. Like shockwaves from an exploding missile, Vladimir Putin’s war on Europe’s edge is rapidly rolling westwards, blasting its way through the front doors of homes, businesses and workplaces from Berlin to Birmingham. Its fallout seeds a toxic rain of instability, hardship and fear.
The idea the Ukraine conflict could be confined to Ukraine – Nato’s politically convenient grand delusion – and that western sanctions and arms supplies would stop the Russians was always a nonsense. Now, enraged by Kyiv’s stubborn resistance and hell-bent on punishing his punishers, Putin’s aim is the immiseration of Europe.
By weaponising energy, food, refugees and information, Russia’s leader spreads the economic and political pain, creating wartime conditions for all. A long, cold, calamity-filled European winter of power shortages and turmoil looms. And like a coin-fed gas meter, the price of western leaders’ timidity and shortsightedness ticks upwards by the hour.
Russia’s destabilisation operations, social media manipulation, cyber-attacks, diplomatic double-talk, nuclear blackmail, plus its unrelenting slaughter of civilians in Ukraine, will only intensify Europe’s state of siege in the months ahead. The west’s fanciful belief it could avoid continent-wide escalation is evaporating fast.
Though not entirely due to Putin’s war, Europe now faces fundamental challenges as big or bigger than the 2008 financial crash, Brexit, or the pandemic. Yet many EU and UK politicians skulk in denial. If, as predicted, the gas stops flowing and the lights dim, it will not just be a matter of closed factories, lost jobs, and depressed markets.
Freezing pensioners, hungry children, empty supermarket shelves, unaffordable cost of living increases, devalued wages, strikes and street protests point to Sri Lanka-style meltdowns. An exaggeration? Not really. Blowback, fanned by the Putin-admiring far right, is already gathering strength in Greece and Italy, the Netherlands and Spain.
In prospect, too, is a shattering of EU solidarity as national governments compete for scarce resources. Brussels is due to publish a “winter preparedness plan” this week. But its provisions are unclear and unenforceable. The broader context is lack of an agreed, implemented EU-wide energy policy.
Despite bilateral cooperation pledges, a total Russian cut-off could pit country against country, further inflate prices, and split the anti-Moscow coalition. In such a scenario Putin would demand sanctions relief in return for resumed supplies, just as he has over blockaded Black Sea grain.
Import-dependent Germany is already taking unilateral steps, seeking alternative oil and gas suppliers. A national emergency moved closer after Moscow turned off the Nord Stream I pipeline last Monday. Many in Berlin fear (and some environmentalists hope) the shutdown – and any subsequent rationing – may become permanent.
Robert Habeck, Germany’s vice-chancellor, fretted publicly about a “political nightmare”. Bruno Le Maire, France’s finance minister, sounded similarly panicky last week. He predicted an imminent gas cut-off. Waxing Napoleonic, he urged European countries to form up in “order of battle”. But as in 1812, Russia has “General Winter”.
As if the mounting misery of millions were not daunting enough, then consider, too, the war’s knock-on impact on efforts to combat the climate and biodiversity crises. In the UK and elsewhere, net zero targets appear at increasing risk of being abandoned.
Because Europe faces “very, very strong conflict and strife” this winter over energy prices, it should make a short-term return to fossil fuels, Frans Timmermans, the European commission’s vice-president, suggested. Once again, Germany is showing a lead, increasing electricity production from coal-fired power stations. Once again, the west looks to tyrannical Gulf oil sheikhs for salvation.
A European winter of chaos may also strain US ties. By comparison, America’s post-pandemic recovery is more advanced, its economy more resilient, its energy costs much lower. Yet it is US president Joe Biden’s too-cautious leadership of Nato that has led Europe into this geopolitical cul-de-sac, even as a weakening euro slides below one dollar.
For Europeans, as they are re-learning to their cost, all wars are local. For Americans, as ever, all wars are foreign.
The sanctions, economic aid, and other non-military measures preferred by Biden were never going to be enough to bring Putin to heel. Some observers suspect a stalemate that slowly bleeds Russia suits US purposes, whatever the collateral damage. Yet right now, it’s Putin who is bleeding Europe. Sanctions are backfiring or poorly enforced. His energy coffers bulge. And Ukrainians aside, the pain is disproportionately felt by less wealthy European and developing countries. As instability grows, US-Europe divergence will feed pressure to change course.
The obvious escape route is a land-for-peace deal with Putin, agreed over Ukraine’s dead bodies. This kind of shoddy sellout has influential advocates. If (and it’s a big “if”), Russia returned to business as normal, it would alleviate Europe’s suffering – though probably not Ukraine’s.
Yet such a deal would also be a precedent-setting disaster for future peace and security across the continent and globally, too. Just think Taiwan. Or Estonia. It would destroy the sovereign integrity of democratic Ukraine.
Fortunately, there is an alternative: using Nato’s overwhelming power to decisively turn the military tide.
As previously argued here, direct, targeted, forceful western action to repulse Russia’s repulsive horde is not a vote for a third world war. It’s the only feasible way to bring this escalating horror to a swift conclusion while ensuring Putin, and those who might emulate him, do not profit from lawless butchery.
Intent on inflicting maximum disruption, Putin openly menaces the heartlands of European democracy. The writing is on the wall and may no longer be ignored. Enough of the half-measures and the dithering! Nato should act now to force Putin’s marauding troops back inside Russia’s recognised borders.
It’s not only Ukraine that requires saving. It’s Europe, too.
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Join date : 2019-11-04
Ljudi su malo više poludeli.
Msm, mogu da se pravi argumenti za panevropski rat protiv Rusije ali ovi argumenti su prosto glupavi. Ući ćeš u nuklearni rat zato što će biti problema sa grejanjem i radom industrije (nakon što si sam "veponizovao" ekonomkse odnose), vajni saveznici neće nužno delovati unisono i biće nekih nedefinisanih tenzija, a jedna zemlja na istoku Evrope je u procesu najebavanja od suseda u agresivnom ratu nakon x godina latentnog sukoba koji su svi zapustili i uradili tačno ništa da ne dozvole da eskalira?
Msm, mogu da se pravi argumenti za panevropski rat protiv Rusije ali ovi argumenti su prosto glupavi. Ući ćeš u nuklearni rat zato što će biti problema sa grejanjem i radom industrije (nakon što si sam "veponizovao" ekonomkse odnose), vajni saveznici neće nužno delovati unisono i biće nekih nedefinisanih tenzija, a jedna zemlja na istoku Evrope je u procesu najebavanja od suseda u agresivnom ratu nakon x godina latentnog sukoba koji su svi zapustili i uradili tačno ništa da ne dozvole da eskalira?
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On (Tisdall) se zalagao za to još u aprilu. Kritike da se time zalaže za kraj civilizacije (kakva da je) izgleda da nije razumeo...
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Rat Nato sa Rusijom naravno je no no. Ali mogli bi umesto sankcija na zlatarske proizvode da razmisle oodlucnijoj vojnoj pomoci Ukrajini. U stvari, to je trebalo i pre mnogih drugih sankcija.
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Ili, uvek postoji, da je tako nazovem, realpolitik opcija - tzv. crvena linija (koja ne mora biti javno komunicirana) - mozete dovde. Cisto da se zna o cemu se prica. To je old school, sustinski kontra Ukrajinaca, ali donekle resava stvar i smanjuje mogucnost nesporazuma koja je sada ogromna i koja lako moze dovesti do najgoreg.
disident
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Da, kad bi im stalo do Ukrajine a ne do zaglibljivanja Rusije u nekom Avganistanu 2.0Mór Thököly wrote:Ili, uvek postoji, da je tako nazovem, realpolitik opcija - tzv. crvena linija (koja ne mora biti javno komunicirana) - mozete dovde. Cisto da se zna o cemu se prica. To je old school, sustinski kontra Ukrajinaca, ali donekle resava stvar i smanjuje mogucnost nesporazuma koja je sada ogromna i koja lako moze dovesti do najgoreg.
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Što se ostaloga tiče, smatram da Zapad treba razoriti
Jedini proleter Burundija
Pristalica krvne osvete
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Једног дана ћемо сазнати и како се данас каже Бжежински.
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cousin for roasting the rakija
И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
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Пре коју годину НАТО вероватно не би користио атомско оружје у случају напада Руса на источни део, али ако би дошли до Немачке онда би и то радило.
Сад је доста другачија ситуација, свашта се променило.
Сад је доста другачија ситуација, свашта се променило.
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Ne bih rekao da imamo posla s bilo kakvom dubokom strategijom, pa ni tom o Avganistanu 2.0. To sto vidimo je uglavnom to sto se zaista i desava - rasulo, nesigurnost, podeljenost, itd. Govorim o SAD i NATO.
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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."
Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
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Tu je zato Sir Bler, poznat po istoriji jasnog mišljenja i ispravne akcije kada su u pitanju međunarodne krize...
Tony Blair's Speech: After Ukraine, What Lessons Now for Western Leadership?
Tony Blair's Speech: After Ukraine, What Lessons Now for Western Leadership?
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Indy wrote:Tu je zato Sir Bler, poznat po istoriji jasnog mišljenja i ispravne akcije kada su u pitanju međunarodne krize...
Tony Blair's Speech: After Ukraine, What Lessons Now for Western Leadership?
„It’s all about delivery.“ - дакле, ко је следећи ко ће да га најми да му прави диливери јуните?
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cousin for roasting the rakija
И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
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The Guardian, 24. I 2022.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/24/autonomy-eastern-ukraine-crisis-nato-russia-minsk
Moreover, Britain has no obligation to defend Ukraine. Nor does it have an obligation to deter or confront what appears to be an imminent Russian attack. The country has no alliance with Ukraine. Ukraine is not a member of Nato. And Britain has no significant means of influencing the outcome of a battle on the ground. For these reasons, it should stay well out of the situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/24/autonomy-eastern-ukraine-crisis-nato-russia-minsk
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Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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Age : 36
Location : Hotline Rakovica
https://news.err.ee/1608658276/russian-belarusian-citizens-will-not-be-allowed-to-own-firearms-in-estoniaThe coalition agreement of the Reform Party, Isamaa and the Social Democratic Party (SDE) aims to prohibit citizens of Russia and Belarus from owning guns in Estonia. Incoming interior minister Lauri Läänemets said the change will take months to implement and that repealing the weapons permits of other unfriendly people should also be considered.
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Sve čega ima na filmu, rekao sam, ima i na Zlatiboru.
~~~~~
Ne dajte da vas prevare! Sačuvajte svoje pojene!
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Sotir wrote:Пре коју годину НАТО вероватно не би користио атомско оружје у случају напада Руса на источни део, али ако би дошли до Немачке онда би и то радило.
Сад је доста другачија ситуација, свашта се променило.
Nato nema razloga da koristi nuklearno oruzje protiv Rusije.
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Pa sada je nekako obrnuta hladnoratovska situacija: zbirna konvencionalna snaga NATO je bitno veća od ruske i stoga je verovatnije da bi Rusija prva pribegla nuklearkama u mogućem sukobu. NATO je nekad planirao da sovjetske oklopne jedinice u Nemačkoj zaustavi taktičkim nuklearkama jer su bilemnogo brojnije od natovskih. Ja očekujem da će Rusija u dogledno vreme možda blago izmeniti makar semantiku svoje nuklearne doktrine jer će morati da signalizira svoj veći oslonac na te snage. A u tom ključu i čitam učestalo mahanje nuklearnom praćkom: konvencionalno ne mogu (dramatično više od ovoga), ekonomski mogu samo ponešto (gas itd) i šta je ostalo - ništa tj nuklearke.
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Pa da
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Well...
“The price we pay is measured in currency.
— Fabrizio Tassinari (@Fatassinari) July 17, 2022
They price they pay is measured in lives lost every day.
So we should stop complaining and step up and provide support.”
pic.twitter.com/A6K4ZpyArF
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„Јесте да кошта, ал' их таманимо, дакле ћут бре тамо и дај још“.
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cousin for roasting the rakija
И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
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njih to košta puno života tako da ako ih mi jače podržimo njih može da košta još i više života
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EU neće povući sankcije uvedene Rusiji zbog rata u Ukrajini, ako Moskva i Kijev potpišu mirovni sporazum pod ruskim uslovima, izjavio je nemački kancelar Olaf Šolc, prenosi TASS, pozivajući se na nemačke medije.
"Deo nove realnosti je da se i EU konsolidovala. Ona je prilično jednoglasno reagovala na rusku agresiju i uvela do sada nezabeležene oštre kaznene mere. Od početka smo znali da ćemo verovatno morati da primenjujemo ove sankcije još dugo", naveo je Šolc u svom članku za nemački dnevnik Frankfurter algemajne cajtung, objavljenom u nedelju.
On je naglasio jasan stav Brisela da "ni jedna od ovih sankcija neće biti povučena u slučaju mira po diktatu Rusije".
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Ovo mi je važnija izjava iz istog intervjua
„Mi jednostavno sebi više ne možemo dozvoliti pravo na nacionalni veto, na primer kada se radi o spoljnoj politici, ako želimo da se i dalje čujemo u svetu velikih sila koje se međusobno nedmeću“, kazao je Šolc.
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Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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Мање више окупљање око вође, ал' ратно стање можда још више воле због ванредних овлашћења. Успешно одолевају свему осим искушења.
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cousin for roasting the rakija
И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
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Zelenski: Više od 60 pripadnika bezbednosti i tužilaštva radilo protiv Ukrajine
Ukrajinski predsednik Volodimir Zelenski smenio je šefa Saveta bezbednosti Ukrajine Ivana Bakanova i glavnu državnu tužiteljku Irinu Venediktovu, navodeći stotine slučajeva navodne izdaje i kolaboracije sa Rusijom. On je kazao da je više od 60 zvaničnika iz Saveta bezbednosti Ukrajine i tužilaštva radilo protiv Ukrajine na teritorijama pod okupacijom Rusije, kao i da je otvoren 651 slučaj za izdaju i kolaboraciju protiv pravosudnih zvaničnika.
„Takav niz zločina protiv temelja nacionalne državne bezbednosti… postavlja veoma ozbiljno pitanje za relevantne lidere. Svako od ovih pitanja će dobiti odgovarajući odgovor“, poručio je Zelenski, prenosi Rojters.
U svom noćnom obraćanju naciji, Zelenski je pomenuo nedavno hapšenje zbog sumnje za izdaju bivšeg šefa Saveta bezbednosti zaduženog za Krim, koji je Rusija anektirala 2014, a Zapad ga i dalje smatra delom ukrajinske teritorije.
Istakao je da je na početku ruske invazije otpustio glavnog bezbednosnog zvaničnika, što je odluka koja se sada pokazala kao opravdana.
„Dovoljno dokaza je prikupljeno da se ova osoba prijavi zbog sumnje na izdaju. Sve njegove kriminalne aktivnosti su dokumentovane“, kazao je Zelenski.
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