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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Thu May 26, 2022 11:22 pm

    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Fri May 27, 2022 9:57 am

    https://www.ft.com/content/b77aa49d-1af6-4d2f-b509-ed302411f129?accessToken=zwAAAYEErYP0kdO3eqSdGvZNL9O1Ce0wJBHxKQ.MEQCIAfSxGzq2LVl_OFxvngbQM-jyQ1zvoShN4lLrE1Ok2QRAiA4hvc4yx8HgxsMlQu_E9m7gtmoY50j4H-BWzJskgKOYw&sharetype=gift?token=3961575d-cc46-4aa9-af0a-5b12c872cc31

    Using Russian assets to rebuild Ukraine won’t be easy
    Western leaders are scrambling for a legal mechanism that preserves trust and due process


    When Volodymyr Zelensky addressed the World Economic Forum via video link this week, he issued a heartfelt appeal to the west: use the assets seized from the Russian central bank and country’s oligarchs to fund the estimated $500bn cost of rebuilding Ukraine. “If the aggressor loses everything, then it deprives him of his motivation to start a war,” he said. “Values must matter when global markets are being destabilised.”

    Many western leaders seem to agree. Josep Borrell, the EU’s chief negotiator recently suggested there is “logic” in using Russian foreign exchange reserves to rebuild Ukraine. And Ursula von der Leyen, European Commission president, responded to Zelensky’s appeal in Davos by noting that Russia “should also make its contribution” to reconstruction.


    This makes for rousing political rhetoric. However, the dirty secret at this week’s WEF meeting is that these public appeals are causing private angst for many of the Davos corporate and financial elite, from the west and its allies.

    This is not because of a lack of sympathy for Ukraine’s plight; nor a failure to recognise that the postwar reconstruction bill will be vast. Instead, the issue is the lack of due process. While most think there is an overwhelming moral case to help Ukraine — and punish Russia’s aggression — freezing assets is quite a different matter from disbursing them. If either is done without a consistent and transparent framework, western governments will either face years of costly lawsuits or end up smashing apart the trust that underpins their political economies. As Zelenksy himself noted, “values” matter now, more than ever — particularly when markets are destabilised.


    “We have been told for decades that the west upholds the rule of law, and we invested in the west on that basis,” one leading non-western sovereign wealth investor observes. “Is that being ripped up now? What are we supposed to think?” 

    Of course, many western observers — and Ukrainians — might argue this is now a second-order question, given the horrors of Russia’s invasion. But I think that those worrying about due process have a point. So, how should this be resolved? Leaders are scrambling for solutions. von der Leyen told the WEF this week “our lawyers are working intensively on finding possible ways of using frozen assets”. Separately, western lawyers sympathetic to Ukraine are studying existing legislative tools to see whether they can be repurposed to this end.


    One idea floating around is to use America’s extensive civil tort laws to enable Ukraine to claim for “damages” from oligarchs’ US assets. A variant of this might be attempted by plaintiffs in France and the Netherlands too, I am told. Another idea is to use arbitration processes linked to some little-known direct investment treaties signed between Russia and the Ukraine in the 1990s, which create a way to impose damages in cases of economic harm.

    Separately, the US administration could seek express legislative authority from congress for introduce new legislation enabling Russian currency assets to be seized. Or the US president might use the International Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977 to redeploy assets in American banks, possibly drawing on precedents established in the 1980s in relation to Iran.

    One of the most interesting ideas of all has emanated from Kyiv, which has quietly drafted a memo calling for a new UN commission for “constitutional, legal, transparent and effective” blocking and seizing of assets belonging to those connected with armed aggression. While the current war in Ukraine is being cited as the pilot project, the idea — or hope — is to create a global framework to be used in other conflicts too.

    The good news is that this shows Kyiv’s recognition of the need for due process. Some Ukrainian business figures are thinking the same way: Rinat Akhmetov, the Ukrainian billionaire, said this week that he would sue Moscow for “appropriate reimbursement for all costs and lost revenue” from the destruction of his assets in Mariupol, such as the Azovstal steel plant.

    The even better news is that Ukraine’s ideas are likely to be welcomed. “The underlying concept of having an international framework covering sanctions could potentially lead to an improvement over the current rather ad hoc imposition of sanctions,” says one western lawyer, who has seen the draft memo.

    But the bad news is that Russia’s veto in the security council will make it hard to establish a UN commission. The idea of deploying the 1977 US emergency powers act is legally controversial, and passing any American legislation swiftly is likely to be difficult. Unless the concept of due process and property rights is overturned, Russian assets will probably remain frozen for many years or endless legal battles will ensue.

    None of these prospects are remotely appealing. But the latter two are arguably the least bad. Unless, of course, von der Leyen can now find a legal process or, better still, the UN embraces Ukraine’s sensible ideas. Either way, the one certainty is that lawyers will soon be reaping fat fees. Therein lies the reality of kinetic and economic war in the 21st century.
    Sotir

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    Post by Sotir Fri May 27, 2022 10:37 am

    Ukraine’s sensible ideas.
    Врхунац овог текста.
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Fri May 27, 2022 11:55 am

    Baš vam je lep taj krak gasovoda, bila bi šteta da mu se nešto desi...

    http://www.nspm.rs/hronika/savetnica-ukrajinskog-ministra-energetike-kijev-ima-polugu-za-pritisak-na-budimpestu-a-to-je-cev-naftovoda-druzba-koja-ide-preko-ukrajinske-teritorije-i-sa-kojim-bi-moglo-nesto-da-se-desi.html


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    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 11:58 am

    Spasibo za Družbu
    Janko Suvar

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    Post by Janko Suvar Fri May 27, 2022 3:00 pm

    The battle for a chain of cities on the western side of Donbas’ circular railway route is beginning in earnest. Sloviansk is being attacked in the north while Bakhmut is besieged in the south. This is the main prize in the current phase of Russia’s war against Ukraine.


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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 3:03 pm

    Da, naravno, u ovoj fazi glavni ciljevi su Kramatorsk i Slovjansk. Time ce se meriti uspeh ove ofanzive.
    Janko Suvar

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    Post by Janko Suvar Fri May 27, 2022 4:11 pm

    First confirmation of Russian troops entering Severodonetsk city, occupying a hotel on the northeast edge


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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 4:17 pm

    Guardian

    Liz Truss, the UK foreign secretary, dismissed as completely unfounded reports emanating from Germany that an agreement exists preventing Nato members from delivering heavy weaponry to Ukraine.


    Speaking in Prague, she said:

    I want to be clear. Those rumours are completely untrue. We are very clear it is completely legitimate to be supporting Ukraine with tanks and planes and we are very supportive of the work Czech Republic has done sending tanks to Ukraine.

    Some German defence ministers have claimed an informal agreement exists preventing Nato from sending high-quality heavy weapons to Ukraine, a claim that has been used to justify the slow pace of German arms support to Ukraine.

    Truss dismissed this, adding the UK was helping Poland backfill its defence equipment as a result of Warsaw sending tanks to Ukraine.

    She added she had proposed in her talks in Prague the Czech Republic join in this modernisation operation.

    She said:

    We have to be ready for the long haul because in supporting Ukraine because we are committed to freedom and democracy

    Now is not the time to be complacent. There should be no talk of a ceasefire or appeasing Putin, We need to make sure that Ukraine wins, Russia withdraws and that we never see this kind of Russian aggression again.



    Edit: i, da se Nemac ne odmori od sekiracije...

    Ukraine’s state gas company and operator have issued a request to the German government to either halt or severely curtail gas flows through the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, Reuters reports.

    The request argues that the operation of the Nord Stream 1 pipeline is allowed under German law on the basis that it contributes to the strengthening of the security of gas supplies to Europe. However, Russia had “violated these principles”, the head of Ukraine’s gas system operator, Serhiy Makogon, said.

    rujofil

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    Post by rujofil Fri May 27, 2022 5:00 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:Da, naravno, u ovoj fazi glavni ciljevi su Kramatorsk i Slovjansk. Time ce se meriti uspeh ove ofanzive.
    Pitam se dokle ce da idu s obzirom da kad padnu Kramatorsk i Slavjansk sve je otvoreno do Dnjepra.
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Fri May 27, 2022 5:14 pm

    rujofil wrote:
    Mór Thököly wrote:Da, naravno, u ovoj fazi glavni ciljevi su Kramatorsk i Slovjansk. Time ce se meriti uspeh ove ofanzive.
    Pitam se dokle ce da idu s obzirom da kad padnu Kramatorsk i Slavjansk sve je otvoreno do Dnjepraunava.

    Ići će dokle budu mogli.


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    Notxor

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    Post by Notxor Fri May 27, 2022 5:18 pm

    Ma da. Tako je bilo kod Kijeva i Harkova - krenuli pa se vratili kad su videli da ne može dalje.
    Isto tako će i na Dnjepar, a da li će tu proći - ne znam ko to može sad da kaže?


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    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Fri May 27, 2022 5:18 pm

    Zar nije vec ustanovljen konsenzus da ce ici do Pridnjestrovlja?
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 5:22 pm

    fikret selimbašić wrote:
    rujofil wrote:
    Pitam se dokle ce da idu s obzirom da kad padnu Kramatorsk i Slavjansk sve je otvoreno do Dnjepraunava.

    Ići će dokle budu mogli.

    +1
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Fri May 27, 2022 5:23 pm

    Filipenko wrote:Zar nije vec ustanovljen konsenzus da ce ici do Pridnjestrovlja?

    Davno je bilo ali ja još pamtim da je Putin u predinvazijskom govoru, a u par navrata i kasnije, pominjao da je cilj specijalne vojne operacije zbacivanje ukrajinskog naci režima, denacifikacija i dekomunizacija. Dakle, cijela Ukrajina je meta, ili ja bar to bila na početku.


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    Post by Guest Fri May 27, 2022 5:30 pm

    Ići će ponovo do Kijeva, pa dokle stignu. Malo su mi nejasne teorije da će proglasiti pobedu nakon ispunjenja operativnih ciljeva na istoku. Uslov za to je da Ukrajina pristane da ne dira novu granicu, što se ne čini baš realnim. Ovo je totalni rat sa totalnim ciljevima: zbacivanje režima u Kijevu/proterivanje Rusije, u najmanju ruku, na poziciju od pre 24. februara.

    Dragstor mod on: ako Ukrajinci dobiju MRLS sisteme, gotovo je sa dosadašnjim modelom opsade gradova. A ne verujem da će NATO oružjem gađati ciljeve u Rusiji pošto nakon toga verovatno ne bi dobili ni dugmad za uniforme.
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Fri May 27, 2022 5:37 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:Ići će ponovo do Kijeva, pa dokle stignu. Malo su mi nejasne teorije da će proglasiti pobedu nakon ispunjenja operativnih ciljeva na istoku. Uslov za to je da Ukrajina pristane da ne dira novu granicu, što se ne čini baš realnim. Ovo je totalni rat sa totalnim ciljevima: zbacivanje režima u Kijevu/proterivanje Rusije, u najmanju ruku, na poziciju od pre 24. februara.

    Ma da, nema političkog rešenja dok se ne prije toga ne desi vojno. Nisam vjerovao da će krenuti u invaziju sve do onog Putinovog igrokaza sa državnim vrhom. Nisam vjerovao jer mi je to djelovalo preveliko da bi se zakotrljalo, a sad kad se zakotrljalo nebo Dunav Jadran je granica.

    Ubijeđen sam da će u trenutku kad Ukrajini ozbiljno zagusti, npr. nakon ruskog prelaska Dnjepra, da se u sukob otvoreno uključe i Poljaci, vjerovatno i Slovaci.


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    disident

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    Post by disident Fri May 27, 2022 5:43 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:Ići će ponovo do Kijeva, pa dokle stignu. Malo su mi nejasne teorije da će proglasiti pobedu nakon ispunjenja operativnih ciljeva na istoku. Uslov za to je da Ukrajina pristane da ne dira novu granicu, što se ne čini baš realnim. Ovo je totalni rat sa totalnim ciljevima: zbacivanje režima u Kijevu/proterivanje Rusije, u najmanju ruku, na poziciju od pre 24. februara.

    Dragstor mod on: ako Ukrajinci dobiju MRLS sisteme, gotovo je sa dosadašnjim modelom opsade gradova. A ne verujem da će NATO oružjem gađati ciljeve u Rusiji pošto nakon toga verovatno ne bi dobili ni dugmad za uniforme.
    Ukrajinci vec imaju MRLS sisteme
    Lazanski off


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    Post by Guest Fri May 27, 2022 5:46 pm

    ma dobro višecevni sistemi su ™ bivšeg SSSR, nego mislim na ona čuda jako velikog dometa koja sad pokušavaju da nažickaju od SAD i UK, a izgleda i da će uspeti
    fikret selimbašić

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    Post by fikret selimbašić Fri May 27, 2022 5:54 pm

    Je li još nekome upadljivo da je ovo rat sa (pre)malo vojnika za ovolike ciljeve? Front je duži od 500 kilometara a sa obje strane nema ni milion angažovanih, ne bi mi taj broj izgledao mali da je ovo hi tech rat i da se uglavnom vode beskontaktni bojevi. Ima tu modernih raketla svakojakih, rade i one poso ali se glavnina toga rešava po WW2 modelu i sa tehnikom starom u prosjeku ćetrdeset+ godina.


    Last edited by fikret selimbašić on Fri May 27, 2022 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 5:54 pm

    fikret selimbašić wrote:
    Cousin Billy wrote:Ići će ponovo do Kijeva, pa dokle stignu. Malo su mi nejasne teorije da će proglasiti pobedu nakon ispunjenja operativnih ciljeva na istoku. Uslov za to je da Ukrajina pristane da ne dira novu granicu, što se ne čini baš realnim. Ovo je totalni rat sa totalnim ciljevima: zbacivanje režima u Kijevu/proterivanje Rusije, u najmanju ruku, na poziciju od pre 24. februara.

    Ma da, nema političkog rešenja dok se ne prije toga ne desi vojno. Nisam vjerovao da će krenuti u invaziju sve do onog Putinovog igrokaza sa državnim vrhom. Nisam vjerovao jer mi je to djelovalo preveliko da bi se zakotrljalo, a sad kad se zakotrljalo nebo Dunav Jadran je granica.

    Ubijeđen sam da će u trenutku kad Ukrajini ozbiljno zagusti, npr. nakon ruskog prelaska Dnjepra, da se u sukob otvoreno uključe i Poljaci, vjerovatno i Slovaci.

    Kao sto rekoh, nadajmo se da je presek ruskog minimuma i zapadnog maksimuma tolerancije prazan skup. Jer ako nije, bice veselo.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Fri May 27, 2022 5:55 pm

    fikret selimbašić wrote:Je li još nekome upadljivo da je ovo rat sa (pre)malo vojnika za ovolike ciljeve. Sa obje strane nema ni milion angažovanih, ne bi mi taj broj izgledao mali da je ovo hi tech rat i da se uglavnom vode beskontaktni bojevi. Ima tu modernih raketla svakojakih, rade i one poso ali se glavnina toga rešava po WW2 modelu i sa tehnikom starom u prosjeku ćetrdeset+ godina.

    Nine vise XX vek, jbg.
    disident

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    Post by disident Fri May 27, 2022 5:59 pm

    Cousin Billy wrote:ma dobro višecevni sistemi su ™ bivšeg SSSR, nego mislim na ona čuda jako velikog dometa koja sad pokušavaju da nažickaju od SAD i UK, a izgleda i da će uspeti
    Trudim se da sto manje pratim vesti o ratu pa mozda gresim, ali mi je dosadasnji utisak oko isporuke raznog oruzija koje ce da promeni tok rata da je upitanju samo Wunderwaffe 2022. 
    Bili su najavljivani tako razni dronovi, pa javelini, pa je kmet Andruilo pisao o americkim haubicama koje preokrecu rat u ukrajinsku korist, sad su na red dosli i MRLS. A i prvo pitanje je dal ce im dati te najnovije verzije sa najvecim dometom, koliko ih imaju i u kakvom su stanju/kad su proizvedene.


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    Post by Notxor Fri May 27, 2022 6:01 pm

    Niz uz uobičajenu napomenu da se nimalo ne razumem u naoružanje i slično



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    Post by Guest Fri May 27, 2022 6:03 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    fikret selimbašić wrote:Je li još nekome upadljivo da je ovo rat sa (pre)malo vojnika za ovolike ciljeve. Sa obje strane nema ni milion angažovanih, ne bi mi taj broj izgledao mali da je ovo hi tech rat i da se uglavnom vode beskontaktni bojevi. Ima tu modernih raketla svakojakih, rade i one poso ali se glavnina toga rešava po WW2 modelu i sa tehnikom starom u prosjeku ćetrdeset+ godina.

    Nine vise XX vek, jbg.

    +1 

    nema dovoljno potencijalnih vojnika niti ratne industrije koja bi ih snabdevala. 
    mislim sve je ovo premoren, potrošen civilizacijski model, bez fizičke i moralne snage. jedni nemaju ni vojske ni džebane, a drugi ne umeju da nađu konsenzus ni oko bazične bezbednosti.

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