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    Crna Gora - okupacija & apel

    Bluberi

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    Post by Bluberi Sat May 02, 2020 9:01 pm

    Sve to imaš u našem razmimoilaženju oko peticije za Crnu Goru
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat May 02, 2020 10:51 pm

    Не, Блубери, ово нема баш много везе са Црном Гором. Или је макар ја не видим.


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    Bluberi

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    Post by Bluberi Sat May 02, 2020 11:02 pm

    Ne vidiš je.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat May 02, 2020 11:11 pm

    Ето, ти да си неки друг ти би објаснио...


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    Bluberi

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    Post by Bluberi Sat May 02, 2020 11:21 pm

    Ne ponavlja mi se CG topik.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sat May 02, 2020 11:35 pm

    Вала ни мени.


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    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sat May 02, 2020 11:40 pm

    Ne znam zašto, malo me BS i rasprava podsetila na jedan davni tekst, fragmentarno. 


    ...

    Inside the Vampires’ Castle

    The first configuration is what I came to call the Vampires’ Castle. The Vampires’ Castle specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd. The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is also attacking the struggles against racism, sexism, heterosexism. But, far from being the only legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements. The Vampires’ Castle was born the moment when the struggle not to be defined by identitarian categories became the quest to have ‘identities’ recognised by a bourgeois big Other.

    The privilege I certainly enjoy as a white male consists in part in my not being aware of my ethnicity and my gender, and it is a sobering and revelatory experience to occasionally be made aware of these blind-spots. But, rather than seeking a world in which everyone achieves freedom from identitarian classification, the Vampires’ Castle seeks to corral people back into identi-camps, where they are forever defined in the terms set by dominant power, crippled by self-consciousness and isolated by a logic of solipsism which insists that we cannot understand one another unless we belong to the same identity group.

    I’ve noticed a fascinating magical inversion projection-disavowal mechanism whereby the sheer mention of class is now automatically treated as if that means one is trying to downgrade the importance of race and gender. In fact, the exact opposite is the case, as the Vampires’ Castle uses an ultimately liberal understanding of race and gender to obfuscate class. In all of the absurd and traumatic twitterstorms about privilege earlier this year it was noticeable that the discussion of class privilege was entirely absent. The task, as ever, remains the articulation of class, gender and race – but the founding move of the Vampires’ Castle is the dis-articulation of class from other categories.

    The problem that the Vampires’ Castle was set up to solve is this: how do you hold immense wealth and power while also appearing as a victim, marginal and oppositional?
    The solution was already there – in the Christian Church. So the VC has recourse to all the infernal strategies, dark pathologies and psychological torture instruments Christianity invented, and which Nietzsche described in The Genealogy of Morals. This priesthood of bad conscience, this nest of pious guilt-mongers, is exactly what Nietzsche predicted when he said that something worse than Christianity was already on the way. Now, here it is …

    The Vampires’ Castle feeds on the energy and anxieties and vulnerabilities of young students, but most of all it lives by converting the suffering of particular groups – the more ‘marginal’ the better – into academic capital. The most lauded figures in the Vampires’ Castle are those who have spotted a new market in suffering – those who can find a group more oppressed and subjugated than any previously exploited will find themselves promoted through the ranks very quickly.

    The first law of the Vampires’ Castle is: individualise and privatise everything. While in theory it claims to be in favour of structural critique, in practice it never focuses on anything except individual behaviour. Some of these working class types are not terribly well brought up, and can be very rude at times. Remember: condemning individuals is always more important than paying attention to impersonal structures. The actual ruling class propagates ideologies of individualism, while tending to act as a class. (Many of what we call ‘conspiracies’ are the ruling class showing class solidarity.) The VC, as dupe-servants of the ruling class, does the opposite: it pays lip service to ‘solidarity’ and ‘collectivity’, while always acting as if the individualist categories imposed by power really hold. Because they are petit-bourgeois to the core, the members of the Vampires’ Castle are intensely competitive, but this is repressed in the passive aggressive manner typical of the bourgeoisie. What holds them together is not solidarity, but mutual fear – the fear that they will be the next one to be outed, exposed, condemned.

    The second law of the Vampires’ Castle is: make thought and action appear very, very difficult. There must be no lightness, and certainly no humour. Humour isn’t serious, by definition, right? Thought is hard work, for people with posh voices and furrowed brows. Where there is confidence, introduce scepticism. Say: don’t be hasty, we have to think more deeply about this. Remember: having convictions is oppressive, and might lead to gulags.

    The third law of the Vampires’ Castle is: propagate as much guilt as you can. The more guilt the better. People must feel bad: it is a sign that they understand the gravity of things. It’s OK to be class-privileged if you feel guilty about privilege and make others in a subordinate class position to you feel guilty too. You do some good works for the poor, too, right?

    The fourth law of the Vampires’ Castle is: essentialize. While fluidity of identity, pluraity and multiplicity are always claimed on behalf of the VC members – partly to cover up their own invariably wealthy, privileged or bourgeois-assimilationist background – the enemy is always to be essentialized. Since the desires animating the VC are in large part priests’ desires to excommunicate and condemn, there has to be a strong distinction between Good and Evil, with the latter essentialized. Notice the tactics. X has made a remark/ has behaved in a particular way – these remarks/ this behaviour might be construed as transphobic/ sexist etc. So far, OK. But it’s the next move which is the kicker. X then becomes defined as a transphobe/ sexist etc. Their whole identity becomes defined by one ill-judged remark or behavioural slip. Once the VC has mustered its witch-hunt, the victim (often from a working class background, and not schooled in the passive aggressive etiquette of the bourgeoisie) can reliably be goaded into losing their temper, further securing their position as pariah/ latest to be consumed in feeding frenzy.

    The fifth law of the Vampires’ Castle: think like a liberal (because you are one). The VC’s work of constantly stoking up reactive outrage consists of endlessly pointing out the screamingly obvious: capital behaves like capital (it’s not very nice!), repressive state apparatuses are repressive. We must protest!
    ...

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/
    Mr.Pink

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    Post by Mr.Pink Sat May 02, 2020 11:51 pm

    cuj to, za sve su krivi hipsteri

    nece biti. pre ce biti da beli liberali tom ,,znam sta smo radili na palama,, pricom  ucvrscuju svoju ,,stecenu,, privilegovanu poziciju


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    radikalni patrijarhalni feminista

    smrk kod dijane hrk
    zvezda je zivot

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    Post by zvezda je zivot Sun May 03, 2020 12:13 am

    da se ne vredjamo. kakvi da smo ni biljana ni mi ovde nismo na tviteru tako da ne bih potezo vc.

    sve je bio u pravu za tviter. i za zebalda.


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    ova zemlja to je to
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Sun May 03, 2020 12:16 am

    Bendegúz Somogyi wrote:Ne znam zašto, malo me BS i rasprava podsetila na jedan davni tekst, fragmentarno. 


    ...

    Inside the Vampires’ Castle

    The first configuration is what I came to call the Vampires’ Castle. The Vampires’ Castle specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd. The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is also attacking the struggles against racism, sexism, heterosexism. But, far from being the only legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements. The Vampires’ Castle was born the moment when the struggle not to be defined by identitarian categories became the quest to have ‘identities’ recognised by a bourgeois big Other.

    The privilege I certainly enjoy as a white male consists in part in my not being aware of my ethnicity and my gender, and it is a sobering and revelatory experience to occasionally be made aware of these blind-spots. But, rather than seeking a world in which everyone achieves freedom from identitarian classification, the Vampires’ Castle seeks to corral people back into identi-camps, where they are forever defined in the terms set by dominant power, crippled by self-consciousness and isolated by a logic of solipsism which insists that we cannot understand one another unless we belong to the same identity group.

    I’ve noticed a fascinating magical inversion projection-disavowal mechanism whereby the sheer mention of class is now automatically treated as if that means one is trying to downgrade the importance of race and gender. In fact, the exact opposite is the case, as the Vampires’ Castle uses an ultimately liberal understanding of race and gender to obfuscate class. In all of the absurd and traumatic twitterstorms about privilege earlier this year it was noticeable that the discussion of class privilege was entirely absent. The task, as ever, remains the articulation of class, gender and race – but the founding move of the Vampires’ Castle is the dis-articulation of class from other categories.

    The problem that the Vampires’ Castle was set up to solve is this: how do you hold immense wealth and power while also appearing as a victim, marginal and oppositional?
    The solution was already there – in the Christian Church. So the VC has recourse to all the infernal strategies, dark pathologies and psychological torture instruments Christianity invented, and which Nietzsche described in The Genealogy of Morals. This priesthood of bad conscience, this nest of pious guilt-mongers, is exactly what Nietzsche predicted when he said that something worse than Christianity was already on the way. Now, here it is …

    The Vampires’ Castle feeds on the energy and anxieties and vulnerabilities of young students, but most of all it lives by converting the suffering of particular groups – the more ‘marginal’ the better – into academic capital. The most lauded figures in the Vampires’ Castle are those who have spotted a new market in suffering – those who can find a group more oppressed and subjugated than any previously exploited will find themselves promoted through the ranks very quickly.

    The first law of the Vampires’ Castle is: individualise and privatise everything. While in theory it claims to be in favour of structural critique, in practice it never focuses on anything except individual behaviour. Some of these working class types are not terribly well brought up, and can be very rude at times. Remember: condemning individuals is always more important than paying attention to impersonal structures. The actual ruling class propagates ideologies of individualism, while tending to act as a class. (Many of what we call ‘conspiracies’ are the ruling class showing class solidarity.) The VC, as dupe-servants of the ruling class, does the opposite: it pays lip service to ‘solidarity’ and ‘collectivity’, while always acting as if the individualist categories imposed by power really hold. Because they are petit-bourgeois to the core, the members of the Vampires’ Castle are intensely competitive, but this is repressed in the passive aggressive manner typical of the bourgeoisie. What holds them together is not solidarity, but mutual fear – the fear that they will be the next one to be outed, exposed, condemned.

    The second law of the Vampires’ Castle is: make thought and action appear very, very difficult. There must be no lightness, and certainly no humour. Humour isn’t serious, by definition, right? Thought is hard work, for people with posh voices and furrowed brows. Where there is confidence, introduce scepticism. Say: don’t be hasty, we have to think more deeply about this. Remember: having convictions is oppressive, and might lead to gulags.

    The third law of the Vampires’ Castle is: propagate as much guilt as you can. The more guilt the better. People must feel bad: it is a sign that they understand the gravity of things. It’s OK to be class-privileged if you feel guilty about privilege and make others in a subordinate class position to you feel guilty too. You do some good works for the poor, too, right?

    The fourth law of the Vampires’ Castle is: essentialize. While fluidity of identity, pluraity and multiplicity are always claimed on behalf of the VC members – partly to cover up their own invariably wealthy, privileged or bourgeois-assimilationist background – the enemy is always to be essentialized. Since the desires animating the VC are in large part priests’ desires to excommunicate and condemn, there has to be a strong distinction between Good and Evil, with the latter essentialized. Notice the tactics. X has made a remark/ has behaved in a particular way – these remarks/ this behaviour might be construed as transphobic/ sexist etc. So far, OK. But it’s the next move which is the kicker. X then becomes defined as a transphobe/ sexist etc. Their whole identity becomes defined by one ill-judged remark or behavioural slip. Once the VC has mustered its witch-hunt, the victim (often from a working class background, and not schooled in the passive aggressive etiquette of the bourgeoisie) can reliably be goaded into losing their temper, further securing their position as pariah/ latest to be consumed in feeding frenzy.

    The fifth law of the Vampires’ Castle: think like a liberal (because you are one). The VC’s work of constantly stoking up reactive outrage consists of endlessly pointing out the screamingly obvious: capital behaves like capital (it’s not very nice!), repressive state apparatuses are repressive. We must protest!
    ...

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

    tacno se sve ovo odnosi i na biljanu i na "levicu"


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Mr.Pink

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    Post by Mr.Pink Sun May 03, 2020 12:27 am

    svi oni vole identitesku politiku


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    radikalni patrijarhalni feminista

    smrk kod dijane hrk
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 6:26 pm

    Bluberi wrote:Sve to imaš u našem razmimoilaženju oko peticije za Crnu Goru
    On a more serious note: ниси у праву. Јесте, можда су неки ликови сасвим слични Б. Србљановић потписали дотичну петицију, али то је још увек не обезвређује, т.ј. не обезвређује оно што је било битно у читавој ствари: јасан опис механизма путем кога је Србија дестабилизовала суседне земље и изазивала ратове, и још јаснију осуду истог. Е, али... У том малом “али” је било србовања колико ти душа иште, до те мере да су се саговорницима лепиле усташке етикете, а било је и нечег горег: интелектуалног непоштења.

    Мислим, мени је унеколико драго да те та ствар и даље жуља. Али не - није сводиво на “другосрбијански курварлук”, нити било коју од чаршијских теорија завере, лакиране бубашвабе, puppeteers и сл. Оно што се десило, и у Црној Гори и овде на Бурундију, то је била једна омања провала национализма. До следеће добре прилике.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sun May 03, 2020 6:48 pm

    znaš, obično ti kažem da si idiot ili nešto slično kada si bezobrazan kao sada

    sada to neću učiniti, to što si totalan kreten je za mene kazna samo minut ili dva, koliko je potrebno za post, za tebe je to 24/7
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 6:54 pm

    Ти си брале мизантроп 24/7, а нацош провали само понекад, али увек кад треба. Јеби се, морончино!


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    nalog sa ženinog laptopa

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    Post by nalog sa ženinog laptopa Sun May 03, 2020 6:55 pm

    Talason wrote: za tebe je to 24/7

    ne bih se slozio


    p.s. 
    ne dozvoli da iz tebe pokulja nacionalizam, zaklinjem te!!!


    _____
    THE space age is upon us. Rockets are leaving our globe at 
    speeds unheard of only a few years ago, to orbit earth, moon, and 
    sun. People have visited the moon, we have sent space probes to 
    all but one of the planets, and words like "orbit" and "satellite" are 
    picked up by children in the nursery.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 6:58 pm

    Водећи добацивач са галерије, човек који апсолутно никада није написао један редак који би се дао подвести под “имам и ја неко мишљење”.

    Happy, Блубери? Ово си хтео?


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    Bluberi

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    Post by Bluberi Sun May 03, 2020 7:26 pm

    No Country wrote:
    Bluberi wrote:Sve to imaš u našem razmimoilaženju oko peticije za Crnu Goru
    On a more serious note: ниси у праву. Јесте, можда су неки ликови сасвим слични Б. Србљановић потписали дотичну петицију, али то је још увек не обезвређује, т.ј. не обезвређује оно што је било битно у читавој ствари: јасан опис механизма путем кога је Србија дестабилизовала суседне земље и изазивала ратове, и још јаснију осуду истог. Е, али... У том малом “али” је било србовања колико ти душа иште, до те мере да су се саговорницима лепиле усташке етикете, а било је и нечег горег: интелектуалног непоштења.

    Мислим, мени је унеколико драго да те та ствар и даље жуља. Али не - није сводиво на “другосрбијански курварлук”, нити било коју од чаршијских теорија завере, лакиране бубашвабе, puppeteers и сл. Оно што се десило, и у Црној Гори и овде на Бурундију, то је била једна омања провала национализма. До следеће добре прилике.
    Ovo ja zovem superventiliranjem. Ti kao da imaš slepu mrlju kada odsusvo Vučića u peticiji, koja  bez njega, stuba velikosrpskog nacionalizma, nešto sasvim drugo poručuje, i ne adresira na pravo mesto, alhemijski pretvaraš u nešto što svako vidi, ali zna da nije poenta u banalnosti vidljivog, iz aviona vidljivog.

    Ne žulja me ništa, a ti, kako si?
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 7:59 pm

    Ех, кад би се некако дало средити то што је из авиона видљиво, па да се после позабавимо и финесама, ако нам уопште буде до тога. 

    Ово је класично преигравање. Чуј, нема Вучића у петицији!?


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    Somlói Galuska

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    Post by Somlói Galuska Sun May 03, 2020 8:07 pm

    Jedino što je tu iz aviona vidljivo je da se u tom govnetu od saopštenja izmišljaju okupacije i pravi istorijski revizionizam, a sve u cilju da se potpuno zavade srbi i crnogorci, a ti slobodno nastavi sa daljim finesama u drndanju vune.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 9:10 pm

    Знаш како је, када су окупације у питању - ја обично верујем окупиранима. Т.ј. ако кажу да су били окупирани - ја им верујем. Или макар за нијансу више него окупаторима.


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    Међутим у Србији-мук, када вам кажем-мук!
    Bluberi

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    Post by Bluberi Sun May 03, 2020 9:11 pm

    No Country wrote:Ех, кад би се некако дало средити то што је из авиона видљиво, па да се после позабавимо и финесама, ако нам уопште буде до тога. 

    Ово је класично преигравање. Чуј, нема Вучића у петицији!?
    Kontekst je nekom majka, nekom maćeha.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 9:15 pm

    Неко има мајку, неко маћеху... а српска суза нема родитеља.

    Зајеби, бре, Блубери. Било би супер да је тај твој контекст ту једини - или макар најважнији.


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    Somlói Galuska

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    Post by Somlói Galuska Sun May 03, 2020 9:33 pm

    No Country wrote:Знаш како је, када су окупације у питању - ја обично верујем окупиранима. Т.ј. ако кажу да су били окупирани - ја им верујем. Или макар за нијансу више него окупаторима.


    Ne moraš brate ti nikome da veruješ, ne moraš ni istorijske knjige da čitaš - uzmi gugl, potraži da li možeš da nađeš bilo kakav narativ o vojskama koje su došle i okupirale Crnu Goru, gde su bile borbe, koliko ljudi je izglinulo.

    I izvini, kojim okupiranima veruješ - Stipetu Mesiću, Bakiru Izetbegoviću, Bešlinu, Čedi Jovanoviću?

    Drndaš vunu, rekoh.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Sun May 03, 2020 9:50 pm

    Гугл, кажеш?

    In 1910 Montenegro became a kingdom, and as a result of the Balkan wars in 1912 and 1913 (in which the Ottomans lost most of their Balkan lands), a common border with Serbia was established, with Shkodër being awarded to a newly-created Albania, though the current capital city of Montenegro, Podgorica, was on the old border of Albania and Yugoslavia

    Montenegro became one of the Allied Powers during World War I (1914–18). From 1916 to October 1918 Austria-Hungary occupied Montenegro. During the occupation, King Nicholas fled the country and a government-in-exile was set up in Bordeaux.

    In 1922, Montenegro formally became the Oblast of Cetinje in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, with the addition of the coastal areas around Budva and Bay of Kotor. In a further restructuring in 1929, it became a part of a larger Zeta Banate of the Kingdom of Yugoslaviathat reached the Neretva River.
    Е сад ти мени нађи какав други пример из историје где једна краљевина сама себе расформира, и постане део некакве “области”, а све то без присуства/ притиска какве стране чизме? И слободно се служи Гуглом.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

    Posts : 49659
    Join date : 2017-11-16

    Crna Gora - okupacija & apel Empty Re: Crna Gora - okupacija & apel

    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun May 03, 2020 9:54 pm

    nemojte iz vikipedije da ucite, samo u ovom pasusu ima 4 netacne stvari, a da sam samo preleteo

    Crna Gora - okupacija & apel Empty Re: Crna Gora - okupacija & apel

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