WW2 revizionizam

Rozita wrote:Joj, koliko je ovde No Country u pravu, to je skoro da se postena zena zabrine. Ne valja rasprava gde jedna strana sve ubada, a druga sve promasuje, ali ova je takva. Jebote, ljudi, dajte malo racionalnog. Ima zivih ljudi koji su u zlatnim osamdesetim zaglavili na robiji zbog verbalnog delikta, bez ikakve veze sa nacionalizmom, a da ih je, od svih ljudi, samo Puhovski branio. Guglajte Milana Soklica ako ste premladi ili preglupi. I da potegnem Ostapov argument, znam Soklica licno i da Slavisa Lekic ili Tamara Skrozza danas dozive 1% posto torture kroz koju je prosao Soklic, Merkel, Makron i, s oprostenjem, Kurc bi se trkali ko ce se prvi odreci Vucica. Unesite malo razuma u raspravu, ako je moguce.

Rozita wrote:Joj, koliko je ovde No Country u pravu, to je skoro da se postena zena zabrine. Ne valja rasprava gde jedna strana sve ubada, a druga sve promasuje, ali ova je takva. Jebote, ljudi, dajte malo racionalnog. Ima zivih ljudi koji su u zlatnim osamdesetim zaglavili na robiji zbog verbalnog delikta, bez ikakve veze sa nacionalizmom, a da ih je, od svih ljudi, samo Puhovski branio.

The American Ambassador in Yugoslavia ( Patterson ) to the Yugoslav Minister for Foreign Affairs (Tito)
No. 211
Belgrade , November 6, 1945.

Excellency: I have the honor to transmit, under instructions from my Government, the following message to Your Excellency:

The United States Government has been following developments in post-liberation Yugoslavia with particular attention in the light of the responsibility toward the people of Yugoslavia assumed by the United States in conjunction with its British and Soviet Allies at Yalta. The three signatories to the Crimea Declaration recommended in that declaration that the agreement between Marshal Tito on behalf of the National Committee of Liberation and Dr. Subasic on behalf of the Royal Yugoslav Government be put into effect immediately. That agreement provided for the establishment of a unified government containing adherents of both parties to exercise the executive authority pending the decision by a freely elected constituent assembly on the final constitutional organization of the state. The agreement further called for specific guarantees of personal freedom, freedom from fear, liberty of conscience, freedom of speech, liberty of the press, and freedom of assembly and association.

Elections for a constituent assembly have been announced for November 11, 1945. However, owing to failure effectively to implement these guarantees conditions have now been created in Yugoslavia under which a single list of candidates representative of only one section of the electorate will be presented for endorsement on that occasion. In addition, the elections will be conducted and the votes counted by local committees and judicial organs of which the controlling membership has been appointed by, and is consequently overwhelmingly responsive to, leaders of one faction. Finally, in view of these conditions one of the contracting parties to the Tito–Subasic agreement has felt called upon to resign from the unified government together with one of his colleagues.

The United States Government views with concern the developments outlined above which in its opinion demonstrate conclusively that a situation has arisen inimical to the exercise of democratic processes and prejudicial to the validity, as a free and untrammelled expression of the will of all democratic elements of the people, of the elections now contemplated. Election of a common list without an opposition will give no indication of the real views of the Yugoslav people. Unless the Yugoslav Government can restore the confidence of the electorate by fully implementing the guarantees contained in the Tito–Subasic agreement, and particularly those relating to personal freedom and freedom from fear, it is clear that the regime resulting from the forthcoming election will not enjoy the prestige that attaches to a Government that is based on a genuine consultation of the people’s will.

It may be noted that before communicating the above views the United States Government has been in consultation with the other signatories of the Yalta Declaration.

The Ambassador in Yugoslavia ( Patterson ) to the Secretary of State
No. 174
Belgrade , December 6, 1945.
[Received December 19.]

Sir: I have the honor to enclose a memorandum concerning the Yugoslav elections to the Constituent Assembly on November 11, 1945, prepared by Vice-Consul Peter Constan, containing evidence of the intimidation of voters and commenting on the official election returns. The Embassy believes that this and other evidence it has received justify Mr. Constan’s conclusion that the elections of November 11 were the least free ever held in Yugoslavia and that the results announced bear no resemblance to the votes cast.

Embassy members visited some 20 polling places in Belgrade on election day and saw practically no unfairness at these places. This apparent decency was made much of in Yugoslav news releases, which freely quoted statements of Left-Wing Members of Parliament and British journalists brought here by the Yugoslav government to observe the elections. This point, however, is unimportant in judging whether the elections gave the people of Yugoslavia a free opportunity to express their will at the polls. The decisive facts are that masses of people were frightened into voting for the National Front ticket; that the election machinery was entirely in the hands of the National Front; that there were no opposition or neutral observers in a position to verify the results; and that the unscrupulousness shown by the National Front in pre-election activities supports the belief that its members showed equally low ethical standards in submitting election returns.

The Embassy has received masses of detailed figures from unofficial observers indicating that in all localities reported upon the official returns were untrue. There is reason to believe that many, at least, of these reports are true since they come from observers in villages where the inhabitants are personally known to them.

Before the election several peasants came to the Embassy from considerable distances to tell us of the situation in their home villages. They generally told us that they came secretly and in fear of Ozna to beg us not to recognize the results of the elections, since, although nearly all the villagers were opposed to the regime, the majority would probably vote for it out of fear of what might happen to them or their families if they did not.

There is no good reason to doubt the evidence of intimidation reported by Mr. Constan since even government leaders went so far as to publicly state that it would be traitorous to vote against the Front. A threat of this kind is quite sufficient to intimidate a voter when he is convinced that his job, his clothing, food, shelter and freedom from prison for himself and his family depend upon his being known as a supporter of the National Front.

Mr. Constan’s memorandum contains much first hand information, including examples of two Yugoslav soldiers of American birth whose registration applications he had taken, and one of whom served twenty days in jail for falling out of formation while his unit was being marched to the polling booth to vote.

Mr. Constan offers the following comment on one Yugoslav propaganda item:

“Tito is proclaiming that this was the freest and quietest election ever held in Yugoslavia. I submit that a deadly quiet election in the Balkans, and I have seen many of them during the last 25 years, is proof positive of the lack of freedom. When Balkanites cannot have a fight during an election it means that they are afraid to speak their minds. As a matter of fact, in what part of the world, where freedom reigns, do people walk along silently and solemnly and separately, without the slightest show of demonstration, on an election day?”

There was, as the Yugoslav press announced, dancing in the streets far into the evening of election day, but its lack of the usual spontaneity indicated that numbers were dancing, as they had voted, under duress. Teraziye Square, Belgrade, on election night was reminiscent of a Times Square, New York, election night only because of the contrast.

Rozita wrote:Nisam svesna broja Arena, svesna sam koristenja decentralizacije i postojanja veceg broja republicko/drzavnih producentskih kuca, ali ako je SFRJ bila netotalitarna zbog velikog broja nivoa vlasti, onda je dejtonska Bosna vrhunac demokratije: kantoni, distrikti, entiteti, pickematerine. Ok, Zika radi, a Lari Stenton, Milan Soklic, Adem Demaci na robiji, pojeo vuk magarca.

Gargantua wrote:

The Ambassador in Yugoslavia ( Patterson ) to the Secretary of State
No. 174
Belgrade , December 6, 1945.
[Received December 19.]

Sir: I have the honor to enclose a memorandum concerning the Yugoslav elections to the Constituent Assembly on November 11, 1945, prepared by Vice-Consul Peter Constan, containing evidence of the intimidation of voters and commenting on the official election returns. The Embassy believes that this and other evidence it has received justify Mr. Constan’s conclusion that the elections of November 11 were the least free ever held in Yugoslavia and that the results announced bear no resemblance to the votes cast.

Embassy members visited some 20 polling places in Belgrade on election day and saw practically no unfairness at these places. This apparent decency was made much of in Yugoslav news releases, which freely quoted statements of Left-Wing Members of Parliament and British journalists brought here by the Yugoslav government to observe the elections. This point, however, is unimportant in judging whether the elections gave the people of Yugoslavia a free opportunity to express their will at the polls. The decisive facts are that masses of people were frightened into voting for the National Front ticket; that the election machinery was entirely in the hands of the National Front; that there were no opposition or neutral observers in a position to verify the results; and that the unscrupulousness shown by the National Front in pre-election activities supports the belief that its members showed equally low ethical standards in submitting election returns.

The Embassy has received masses of detailed figures from unofficial observers indicating that in all localities reported upon the official returns were untrue. There is reason to believe that many, at least, of these reports are true since they come from observers in villages where the inhabitants are personally known to them.

Before the election several peasants came to the Embassy from considerable distances to tell us of the situation in their home villages. They generally told us that they came secretly and in fear of Ozna to beg us not to recognize the results of the elections, since, although nearly all the villagers were opposed to the regime, the majority would probably vote for it out of fear of what might happen to them or their families if they did not.

There is no good reason to doubt the evidence of intimidation reported by Mr. Constan since even government leaders went so far as to publicly state that it would be traitorous to vote against the Front. A threat of this kind is quite sufficient to intimidate a voter when he is convinced that his job, his clothing, food, shelter and freedom from prison for himself and his family depend upon his being known as a supporter of the National Front.

Mr. Constan’s memorandum contains much first hand information, including examples of two Yugoslav soldiers of American birth whose registration applications he had taken, and one of whom served twenty days in jail for falling out of formation while his unit was being marched to the polling booth to vote.

Mr. Constan offers the following comment on one Yugoslav propaganda item:

“Tito is proclaiming that this was the freest and quietest election ever held in Yugoslavia. I submit that a deadly quiet election in the Balkans, and I have seen many of them during the last 25 years, is proof positive of the lack of freedom. When Balkanites cannot have a fight during an election it means that they are afraid to speak their minds. As a matter of fact, in what part of the world, where freedom reigns, do people walk along silently and solemnly and separately, without the slightest show of demonstration, on an election day?”

There was, as the Yugoslav press announced, dancing in the streets far into the evening of election day, but its lack of the usual spontaneity indicated that numbers were dancing, as they had voted, under duress. Teraziye Square, Belgrade, on election night was reminiscent of a Times Square, New York, election night only because of the contrast.

Gargantua wrote:što?

zapravo su američke diplomate u ovom periodu (od početka oslobođenja do zatezanja odnosa tokom 1946) prvorazredan izvor. od tri sile (uk+sssr+sad) oni su najmanje uključeni u jugoslovensku politiku, nemaju mnogo veza ni kontakata, nemaju predratne i ratne repove, generalno tek "uče" šta se dešava na terenu, nemaju specifično definisane bilateralne interese koji bi bitno krivili analitičku sliku, pa su i komunisti prema njima znatno "blaži" i otvoreniji nego prema britancima koje gledaju pre svega kao sponzore srpske "reakcije".

Rozita wrote:Zilnikova ispovest Budenu kao poslovicni kec na desetku.
I nije problem ako je covek u pravu, nego sto ce pogresni da ga tapsu po ramenima.
Ma sve bolje od boljeg.
Ovi mladji od 45 da ih se nekako i razume.
Ali ovi stariji bi morali da znaju da bi ovaj forum kao takav u nekoj analognoj formi mogucoj u to vreme bio podlozan zakonskoj sankciji.