The Meaning of Ukraine’s Coming Neutrality
History offers clear examples of what neutral status means—and what it doesn’t.
By Anatol Lieven, a senior research fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.
APRIL 4, 2022, 3:25 PM
At the end of director Jean Renoir’s great anti-war film, La Grande Illusion, a German patrol opens fire on two escaped French prisoners of war. One German soldier shouts to another, “Stop shooting! They’re in Switzerland!”
“So much the better for them!” is the reply.
I have often thought of this exchange in the context of the present debate on a treaty of neutrality for Ukraine. This is not just as an essential and unavoidable part of any agreement to end the present Russian invasion but one that may have prevented the invasion happening (since it was first on Russia’s list of demands). A declaration of neutrality has generally been treated, both in the West and in Ukraine itself, as a colossal and dangerous sacrifice by Ukraine.
But modern European history does not altogether bear this out. Being drawn into great-power rivalry may not be such a wonderful thing as the U.S. foreign and security establishment—safely isolated from any resulting horrors—tends to imagine. And if sufficient guarantees are in place, neutrality can be a great boon for a nation.
The essential guarantee is that the country concerned should be free to develop as a market democracy. This is exemplified by the experience of Finland and Austria during the Cold War. By treaty, these countries could join neither NATO nor the Warsaw Pact; I visited both countries during the last decade of the Cold War, and there was absolutely nothing to distinguish them from other prosperous Western democracies. Indeed, both countries have always scored close to the top of global indexes for quality of life.
The oldest formal neutrality pact guaranteed by international agreement, that of Switzerland, was officially created by the 1815 Treaty of Paris, which ended the Napoleonic wars, and was then written into the Swiss Constitution. Internationally recognized neutrality was intended to prevent Switzerland from becoming a dependency of French or German powers—and a battleground between them. So deeply did neutrality become part of Switzerland’s identity that it survived World War I and II, despite strong pro-German sentiments in Switzerland’s German majority and equally strong pro-French sentiments in its French areas.
Finnish neutrality was established by the 1948 Finno-Soviet Treaty, not in the form of constitutional neutrality but as part of an agreement that Finland would not ally with the West against the Soviet Union or allow Soviet troops to enter Finland except by the express decision of the Finnish government.
This treaty stemmed from the Finnish-Soviet peace agreement of 1944, by which Finland abandoned its alliance with Nazi Germany and left World War II. This agreement also confirmed and slightly extended the territorial concessions Finland made to the Soviet Union after its eventual defeat in the Winter War of 1939 and 1940. In accordance with this treaty, Finland did not join either NATO or the European Union during the Cold War. In 1992, the 1948 treaty was replaced by a new Finnish-Russian friendship treaty that did not contain a provision of neutrality, and in 1995, Finland joined the European Union. To date, however, Finland has retained its policy of military nonalignment and has not sought to join NATO.
Two features of Finnish neutrality are worth noting in the Ukrainian context. The first is that Soviet leadership was apparently convinced by the toughness of Finnish resistance in 1939 and 1940 that incorporating Finland into the Soviet Union (as it did in the case of Finland’s southern neighbors—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), would be more trouble than it was worth. Finland was therefore the only territory of the former Russian Empire not to be annexed to the Soviet Union by former Soviet leaders Vladimir Lenin or Joseph Stalin.
The second is that Moscow stuck to the letter of the treaty with Finland. It did not seek to promote a communist revolution in Finland or to turn Finland into a militarily dependent country by indirect means. The Soviet Union even withdrew from the Porkkala Naval Base in 1956; although under the 1944 agreement, it had leased it for 50 years. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has sometimes disagreed with Finnish policies, but it has never threatened Finland militarily.
Austrian neutrality was established in 1955 by an agreement (the Austrian State Treaty) among the former victorious allies that had occupied Germany and Austria at the end of World War II. As a result, Soviet, U.S., British, and French occupation forces left the country and Austrian sovereign independence was restored. As in the case of Finland, Moscow strictly observed the terms of the Austrian treaty.
Since the Russian government issued their démarche to Ukraine and the West in December 2021, Ukrainian neutrality has always been first on Moscow’s list of demands. This marks a recognition that the Russian strategy prior to 2014—that of bringing Ukraine into close alliance with Russia as part of the Russian-led Eurasian Economic Union and Collective Security Treaty Organization—has failed utterly. Something that too much of the Western commentary on this issue forgets is that a treaty of neutrality also bans Ukraine from entering a Russian-dominated alliance.
A treaty of neutrality for Ukraine would have to include certain essential conditions guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty and independence. The first is that Ukraine should have the complete ability to develop its own armed forces to defend itself. NATO bases and exercises in Ukraine would be excluded, but Ukraine would be free to buy all necessary weapons systems, with the possible exclusion of intermediate-range missiles capable of hitting Moscow. If Russia insisted on a ban on NATO tanks or warplanes, Ukraine would be able to buy these from Sweden, a NATO ally in all but name. Russia must reciprocate for any limits on Ukrainian weapons by limiting its own forces stationed in Crimea and on Ukraine’s borders, possibly as part of a new arms limitation agreement with NATO.
Secondly, Ukraine must retain the right to develop close links with and eventually join the European Union. This is, in fact, a much stronger factor in democratization than NATO membership—remember the example of Turkey, which has been a member of NATO almost since the treaty’s beginning without ever really developing into a stable and successful democracy. Russia has reportedly already agreed to this.
After the war, the West should give maximum possible support for Ukraine to move toward EU membership. However, this will also require deep reforms in Ukraine, including moves to curb corruption and the power of extreme nationalist groups, for there will be strong opposition within the EU to admitting any more members with the public ethics of Romania and Bulgaria or the political cultures of Poland and Hungary.
Finally, a treaty of neutrality must include a commitment by all the signatories and members of the United Nations Security Council to Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity (with a proviso, suggested by Ukraine, that the status of the disputed territories of Crimea and the Donbas be subject to future negotiation while the use or threat of force by either side to resolve these disputes be banned). NATO and the EU should write into the treaty formal and detailed commitments to resume full economic sanctions against Russia if it violates the terms of the treaty and once again attacks Ukraine; although for this threat to be effective, it presupposes that the West is willing to lift its new sanctions against Russia as part of a peace agreement.
Ukraine has demanded that the West and the international community commit themselves to going to war to defend Ukraine if such a treaty is violated. This demand exposes the full hypocrisy and irresponsibility of NATO in its dealings with Ukraine, for it would mean a NATO commitment to fight to defend Ukraine—which is precisely what NATO has always refused to do. British Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab has already ruled out any such promise from Britain. One can assume other NATO governments feel similarly.
The demand for absolute guarantees that such a treaty would be respected by Moscow is likely pointless. No international agreement has ever been absolutely certain for all time. Ultimately, faith in a treaty’s maintenance can only rest in it meeting the basic interests of both sides and being preferable to a resumption of conflict.
From this point of view, the greatest assurance of future Ukrainian security has already been achieved by the Ukrainian forces themselves (with considerable help from Western weaponry). The heroic fight put up by the Finns in 1939 and 1940 was the best guarantee that the Soviet Union would respect its treaty of neutrality and Finnish independence. The tough resistance of the Ukrainians has fought the Russian invaders to a standstill on most fronts, inflicted huge losses on their elite troops, and frustrated the Kremlin’s plan to subjugate Ukraine. Meanwhile, unexpectedly harsh Western sanctions have devastated the Russian economy. If Russia can achieve an agreement that meets basic Russian conditions, it seems highly unlikely that any future Russian government would wish to repeat the awful experience of that war.
Anatol Lieven is a senior fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and the author of Pakistan: A Hard Country. His most recent book, Climate Change and the Nation State, is appearing in an updated paperback edition in September 2021.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/04/ukraine-neutrality-nato-west-europe-russia-peace-ceasefire/
Rat u Ukrajini
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- Post n°901
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Anatol Liven, opinjun
- Posts : 10415
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- Post n°902
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Cousin Billy wrote:Da, s tim što je novo da će isporuka biti mnogo brža nego što je prvobitno dogovoreno.
Naravno.
A đe ćete sad sa Abramsima?
Pa u hangare, za sad.
A imate li praznih hangara?
Nemamo, u njima su naši tenkovi.
E, ispraznite ih, da vam Abramsi ne koroziraju na poligonima.
A, đe ćemo sa našim neabrams tenkovima?
Hmmm.
_____
Međuopštinski pustolov.
Zli stolar.
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- Post n°903
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Odjeci
Ça sent le roussi les potes.
— Benjamin Bak (@BenjaminBak1) April 5, 2022
NATO will expand cooperation with partners in Asia-Pacific region due to China's refusal to condemn Russia's operation in Ukraine.https://t.co/dBrxrWabE9
- Posts : 22555
Join date : 2014-12-01
- Post n°904
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Samo za ljubitelje antifasizma.
Ukrajina će postati svojevrsni “veliki Izrael”, izjavio je u utorak ukrajinski predsednik Volodimir Zelenski.
Time je ukazao na to da njegova zemlja namerava da se ugleda na izraelsku bezbednosnu državu nakon ruske specijalne operacije.
"Ukrajina definitivno neće biti ono što smo želeli od početka. To je nemoguće. Apsolutno liberalna, evropska – neće biti takva", rekao je Zelenski.
"Postaćemo 'veliki Izrael' sa sopstvenim licem. Nećemo biti iznenađeni ako budemo imali predstavnike oružanih snaga ili Nacionalne garde u bioskopima, supermarketima i ljude sa oružjem. Siguran sam da će pitanje bezbednosti biti pitanje broj jedan narednih 10 godina. Siguran sam u to", rekao je on.
"Izraelci su čitavu svoju istoriju živeli okruženi neprijateljima i Ukrajina će činiti isto", rekao je ukrajinski ambasador Jevgen Kornijčuk za Harec nakon komentara Zelenskog, izjavivši da Kijev ne smatra da može da se osloni na međunarodne bezbednosne garancije, poput onih koje je dobio od Zapada nakon svog nuklearnog razoružanja 1994. godine.
Zelenski, koji je Jevrejin, dugo je pozdravljao Izrael kao model za svoju zemlju, iako je takođe bio kritičan prema odluci izraelske vlade da zadrži relativno neutralnu liniju po pitanju sukoba.
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- Post n°905
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
#BREAKING—#MARIUPOL—Military officers from #France, #Germany, #UK, and #Sweden are currently on the territory of the #Azovstal industrial complex and are requesting #Russia|n forces to grant them a green corridor to evacuate. (per journalist German #Vladimirov).
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????
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Age : 36
Location : Hotline Rakovica
- Post n°906
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Pa jebi ga sad.
_____
Sve čega ima na filmu, rekao sam, ima i na Zlatiboru.
~~~~~
Ne dajte da vas prevare! Sačuvajte svoje pojene!
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- Post n°907
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Kako to? Kako to?
_____
Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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- Post n°908
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
i ovako je dreka na njih zamisli tek kako bi skočili hjumanrajcvočovi u takvoj situaciji, Putin zločinac izgladnjuje djecu i onda fotografija lešinara iz Afrike kako gleda crno dijete koje umire od gladi kao ilustracijaNotxor wrote:MNE wrote:koji drugi, da iskaču iz šahti na prepad kao nindža kornjače?
ukrajinski modus operandi je da koriste civile kao živi štit u čemu imaju svesrdnu medijsku zaštitu čitavog zapada, šta god Rusi da urade biće medijski ocrnjeni
NATO je nas gađao po civilnim ciljevima jer su imali medije iza sebe i mogli su tako još 10 godina, sad Rusi misle da mogu da se ponašaju isto tako ali što je dozvoljeno Jupiteru nije dozvoljeno volu jbg
Srednji vek, opsada gradova, nema struje, nema vode, ali nema ni bombardovanja, ko hoće da izađe može slobodno.
Jedino tako može da se umanji stradanje civila i rušenje.
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- Post n°909
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Verovatno nikako. Ovo je twitter copypasta bez ikakvog izvora.Notxor wrote:Kako to? Kako to?
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- Post n°910
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
i meni djeluje kao glupost, stranih oficira u Ukrajini sigurno ima ali ne na linijama fronta i onamo gdje bi Rusi mogli da ih opkole
- Guest
- Post n°912
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Neki kažu da je među oficirima i američki general sa tri zvezdice, a korisnik twittera po imenu Harry Haler (hemičar, omiljeni muzičar Rodžer Voters) je ČUO da je posredi general Roger Cloutier.
Last edited by Cousin Billy on Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Meni je upalo u oči #Sweden, ali štajaznam...
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Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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- Post n°914
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Del Cap wrote:Anatol Liven, opinjun
The Meaning of Ukraine’s Coming Neutrality
History offers clear examples of what neutral status means—and what it doesn’t.
By Anatol Lieven, a senior research fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.
APRIL 4, 2022, 3:25 PM
At the end of director Jean Renoir’s great anti-war film, La Grande Illusion, a German patrol opens fire on two escaped French prisoners of war. One German soldier shouts to another, “Stop shooting! They’re in Switzerland!”
“So much the better for them!” is the reply.
I have often thought of this exchange in the context of the present debate on a treaty of neutrality for Ukraine. This is not just as an essential and unavoidable part of any agreement to end the present Russian invasion but one that may have prevented the invasion happening (since it was first on Russia’s list of demands). A declaration of neutrality has generally been treated, both in the West and in Ukraine itself, as a colossal and dangerous sacrifice by Ukraine.
But modern European history does not altogether bear this out. Being drawn into great-power rivalry may not be such a wonderful thing as the U.S. foreign and security establishment—safely isolated from any resulting horrors—tends to imagine. And if sufficient guarantees are in place, neutrality can be a great boon for a nation.
The essential guarantee is that the country concerned should be free to develop as a market democracy. This is exemplified by the experience of Finland and Austria during the Cold War. By treaty, these countries could join neither NATO nor the Warsaw Pact; I visited both countries during the last decade of the Cold War, and there was absolutely nothing to distinguish them from other prosperous Western democracies. Indeed, both countries have always scored close to the top of global indexes for quality of life.
The oldest formal neutrality pact guaranteed by international agreement, that of Switzerland, was officially created by the 1815 Treaty of Paris, which ended the Napoleonic wars, and was then written into the Swiss Constitution. Internationally recognized neutrality was intended to prevent Switzerland from becoming a dependency of French or German powers—and a battleground between them. So deeply did neutrality become part of Switzerland’s identity that it survived World War I and II, despite strong pro-German sentiments in Switzerland’s German majority and equally strong pro-French sentiments in its French areas.
Finnish neutrality was established by the 1948 Finno-Soviet Treaty, not in the form of constitutional neutrality but as part of an agreement that Finland would not ally with the West against the Soviet Union or allow Soviet troops to enter Finland except by the express decision of the Finnish government.
This treaty stemmed from the Finnish-Soviet peace agreement of 1944, by which Finland abandoned its alliance with Nazi Germany and left World War II. This agreement also confirmed and slightly extended the territorial concessions Finland made to the Soviet Union after its eventual defeat in the Winter War of 1939 and 1940. In accordance with this treaty, Finland did not join either NATO or the European Union during the Cold War. In 1992, the 1948 treaty was replaced by a new Finnish-Russian friendship treaty that did not contain a provision of neutrality, and in 1995, Finland joined the European Union. To date, however, Finland has retained its policy of military nonalignment and has not sought to join NATO.
Two features of Finnish neutrality are worth noting in the Ukrainian context. The first is that Soviet leadership was apparently convinced by the toughness of Finnish resistance in 1939 and 1940 that incorporating Finland into the Soviet Union (as it did in the case of Finland’s southern neighbors—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), would be more trouble than it was worth. Finland was therefore the only territory of the former Russian Empire not to be annexed to the Soviet Union by former Soviet leaders Vladimir Lenin or Joseph Stalin.
The second is that Moscow stuck to the letter of the treaty with Finland. It did not seek to promote a communist revolution in Finland or to turn Finland into a militarily dependent country by indirect means. The Soviet Union even withdrew from the Porkkala Naval Base in 1956; although under the 1944 agreement, it had leased it for 50 years. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has sometimes disagreed with Finnish policies, but it has never threatened Finland militarily.
Austrian neutrality was established in 1955 by an agreement (the Austrian State Treaty) among the former victorious allies that had occupied Germany and Austria at the end of World War II. As a result, Soviet, U.S., British, and French occupation forces left the country and Austrian sovereign independence was restored. As in the case of Finland, Moscow strictly observed the terms of the Austrian treaty.
Since the Russian government issued their démarche to Ukraine and the West in December 2021, Ukrainian neutrality has always been first on Moscow’s list of demands. This marks a recognition that the Russian strategy prior to 2014—that of bringing Ukraine into close alliance with Russia as part of the Russian-led Eurasian Economic Union and Collective Security Treaty Organization—has failed utterly. Something that too much of the Western commentary on this issue forgets is that a treaty of neutrality also bans Ukraine from entering a Russian-dominated alliance.
A treaty of neutrality for Ukraine would have to include certain essential conditions guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty and independence. The first is that Ukraine should have the complete ability to develop its own armed forces to defend itself. NATO bases and exercises in Ukraine would be excluded, but Ukraine would be free to buy all necessary weapons systems, with the possible exclusion of intermediate-range missiles capable of hitting Moscow. If Russia insisted on a ban on NATO tanks or warplanes, Ukraine would be able to buy these from Sweden, a NATO ally in all but name. Russia must reciprocate for any limits on Ukrainian weapons by limiting its own forces stationed in Crimea and on Ukraine’s borders, possibly as part of a new arms limitation agreement with NATO.
Secondly, Ukraine must retain the right to develop close links with and eventually join the European Union. This is, in fact, a much stronger factor in democratization than NATO membership—remember the example of Turkey, which has been a member of NATO almost since the treaty’s beginning without ever really developing into a stable and successful democracy. Russia has reportedly already agreed to this.
After the war, the West should give maximum possible support for Ukraine to move toward EU membership. However, this will also require deep reforms in Ukraine, including moves to curb corruption and the power of extreme nationalist groups, for there will be strong opposition within the EU to admitting any more members with the public ethics of Romania and Bulgaria or the political cultures of Poland and Hungary.
Finally, a treaty of neutrality must include a commitment by all the signatories and members of the United Nations Security Council to Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity (with a proviso, suggested by Ukraine, that the status of the disputed territories of Crimea and the Donbas be subject to future negotiation while the use or threat of force by either side to resolve these disputes be banned). NATO and the EU should write into the treaty formal and detailed commitments to resume full economic sanctions against Russia if it violates the terms of the treaty and once again attacks Ukraine; although for this threat to be effective, it presupposes that the West is willing to lift its new sanctions against Russia as part of a peace agreement.
Ukraine has demanded that the West and the international community commit themselves to going to war to defend Ukraine if such a treaty is violated. This demand exposes the full hypocrisy and irresponsibility of NATO in its dealings with Ukraine, for it would mean a NATO commitment to fight to defend Ukraine—which is precisely what NATO has always refused to do. British Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab has already ruled out any such promise from Britain. One can assume other NATO governments feel similarly.
The demand for absolute guarantees that such a treaty would be respected by Moscow is likely pointless. No international agreement has ever been absolutely certain for all time. Ultimately, faith in a treaty’s maintenance can only rest in it meeting the basic interests of both sides and being preferable to a resumption of conflict.
From this point of view, the greatest assurance of future Ukrainian security has already been achieved by the Ukrainian forces themselves (with considerable help from Western weaponry). The heroic fight put up by the Finns in 1939 and 1940 was the best guarantee that the Soviet Union would respect its treaty of neutrality and Finnish independence. The tough resistance of the Ukrainians has fought the Russian invaders to a standstill on most fronts, inflicted huge losses on their elite troops, and frustrated the Kremlin’s plan to subjugate Ukraine. Meanwhile, unexpectedly harsh Western sanctions have devastated the Russian economy. If Russia can achieve an agreement that meets basic Russian conditions, it seems highly unlikely that any future Russian government would wish to repeat the awful experience of that war.
Anatol Lieven is a senior fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and the author of Pakistan: A Hard Country. His most recent book, Climate Change and the Nation State, is appearing in an updated paperback edition in September 2021.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/04/ukraine-neutrality-nato-west-europe-russia-peace-ceasefire/
Dobri predlozi ali nekako nemam dojam da ce tako zavrsiti...
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Join date : 2020-09-07
- Post n°915
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
MNE wrote:
i ovako je dreka na njih zamisli tek kako bi skočili hjumanrajcvočovi u takvoj situaciji, Putin zločinac izgladnjuje djecu i onda fotografija lešinara iz Afrike kako gleda crno dijete koje umire od gladi kao ilustracija
Nije kraj istorije, ratova će biti, a problem osvajanja gradova u kojima je vojska pomešana sa civilima ostaje.
U ratu me najviše zanima zaštita civila.
Ko uzme pušku u ruke prihvatio je da može da pogine.
Za smrt civila ne postoji nikakvo opravdanje, nikakva kolateralna šteta. IMHO.
_____
Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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Join date : 2017-03-14
- Post n°916
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
ma upitno je opravdanje za samu agresiju a to da može da se ratuje bez stradanja civila to apsolutno nije izvodivo čak i kad se Ukrajinci ne bi krili među njima
- Guest
- Post n°917
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
momci, "civili kao živi štit" je propagandna tropa, nije realna stvar. to se (osim u slučajevima kada se zaista koriste taoci) u ratnoj medijskoj komunikaciji koristi kao avans za gađanje urbanih zona. Izrael to obožava da radi, da gađa zgrade i da post festum tvrdi da se neprijatelj skrivao u njima.
u realnom svetu, vojska se krije tačno tamo gde mora, isto kao i naša vojska 1999. godine, za koju niko od vas ne bi rekao da je koristila "civile kao živi štit". PVO baterija pored vrtića na Zvezdari, gađači "strelama" na zidinama Kalemegdana, i tako dalje. a na agresoru je da proceni koliko kolateralne štete može da podnese bez prevelikih posledica po reputaciju, i to u relaciji sa taktičkom vrednošću samog cilja.
u realnom svetu, vojska se krije tačno tamo gde mora, isto kao i naša vojska 1999. godine, za koju niko od vas ne bi rekao da je koristila "civile kao živi štit". PVO baterija pored vrtića na Zvezdari, gađači "strelama" na zidinama Kalemegdana, i tako dalje. a na agresoru je da proceni koliko kolateralne štete može da podnese bez prevelikih posledica po reputaciju, i to u relaciji sa taktičkom vrednošću samog cilja.
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Join date : 2020-09-07
- Post n°918
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Dilema je da li je bolje okružiti gradove, iseći vodu i struju i čekati ili "precizno bombardovati legitimne ciljeve" uz rizik kolateralne štete.
Ja sam napisao šta ja mislim.
Ja sam napisao šta ja mislim.
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Sweet and Tender Hooligan
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Join date : 2020-06-19
- Post n°919
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Korištenje civila kao živi štit, kad ovo čujem, zamislim guranje svojih ili neprijateljskih civila ispred sebe u nastupanju ili povlačenju, ili za čišćenje minskih polja. Civili koji su se zatekli na prostoru koji Rusi napadaju su možda vjerovali Putinu koji je do zadnjeg sata tvrdio da neće napasti. Sad ruskoj vojci ti civili služe da ih pomenu kao razlog za usporeno naredovanje, usput i kao izgovor za mnoge neuspjehe. Ondje gdje mogu da napreduju, ni 2% ne jebu priču o civilima već ravnaju što mogu i čim imaju.
Ne bi tog problema bilo da je Rusija dostavila ukrajinskoj strani svoje planove bar mjesec dana prije invazije, da ovi, a i okolne zemlje, dobiju vremena za evakuaciju i smještaj civila
Ne bi tog problema bilo da je Rusija dostavila ukrajinskoj strani svoje planove bar mjesec dana prije invazije, da ovi, a i okolne zemlje, dobiju vremena za evakuaciju i smještaj civila
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Međuopštinski pustolov.
Zli stolar.
- Posts : 28265
Join date : 2015-03-20
- Post n°920
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
fikret selimbašić wrote:
Ne bi tog problema bilo da je Rusija dostavila ukrajinskoj strani svoje planove bar mjesec dana prije invazije
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#FreeFacu
Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
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- Post n°921
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Cousin Billy wrote:momci, "civili kao živi štit" je propagandna tropa, nije realna stvar. to se (osim u slučajevima kada se zaista koriste taoci) u ratnoj medijskoj komunikaciji koristi kao avans za gađanje urbanih zona. Izrael to obožava da radi, da gađa zgrade i da post festum tvrdi da se neprijatelj skrivao u njima.
u realnom svetu, vojska se krije tačno tamo gde mora, isto kao i naša vojska 1999. godine, za koju niko od vas ne bi rekao da je koristila "civile kao živi štit". PVO baterija pored vrtića na Zvezdari, gađači "strelama" na zidinama Kalemegdana, i tako dalje. a na agresoru je da proceni koliko kolateralne štete može da podnese bez prevelikih posledica po reputaciju, i to u relaciji sa taktičkom vrednošću samog cilja.
ovakvih snimaka kako se puca svim i svačim sa prozora zgrada ima na stotine, to nikako nije isto kao PVO baterija pored vrtića i gađači na Kalemegdanu
generalno se ne može dobro procijeniti sa kog prozora se puca pa onda pucaju i u taj i u okolne i onda dobiješ razrušen Marijupolj
- Posts : 7894
Join date : 2019-06-06
- Post n°922
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Nisam proverio odakle je samo sam kopirao, izvinjavam se
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????
- Posts : 7238
Join date : 2019-11-04
- Post n°923
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Ne postoji borba u gradskim sredinama koja ne uključuje solidno razvaljivanje grada. Vojska nije specijalna antiteroristička jedinica da sve rešava snajperom ili šok-bombama i upadom, niti su sa druge strane teroristi sa kalašima i taocima. Sve to važi isto i za Staljingrad i Vukovar i Grozni i Faludžu i Alep i Mariupolj. Jedini način da se grad zauzme bez rararanja je da se niko u njemu ne brani.
- Posts : 8095
Join date : 2020-09-07
- Post n°924
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Milioni žena i dece su se sklonili iz UKR.
Ideja da žene i deca moraju da ostanu u gradovima koji su u okruženju je zločin, opet IMHO.
Rušenje je tu nebitno, bitni su životi.
I opet, kriv je onaj ko je napao, a ne onaj ko se brani.
Ideja da žene i deca moraju da ostanu u gradovima koji su u okruženju je zločin, opet IMHO.
Rušenje je tu nebitno, bitni su životi.
I opet, kriv je onaj ko je napao, a ne onaj ko se brani.
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Sweet and Tender Hooligan
- Posts : 7238
Join date : 2019-11-04
- Post n°925
Re: Rat u Ukrajini
Zločin protiv mira je ionako prvi u hijerarhiji, odatle sve počinje.