"Niska" književnost

William Gibson Verified account ‏@GreatDismal
So "jacked in" is the next new anachronism in my early fiction #ThanksApple

el je pop muzika visoka il niska knjizevnost?

Pop muzika?

Popularna muzika je niska umetnost koliko je i Rable niska književnost. Zvezdo, ako imaš potrebu da se distanciraš od odluke Nobelovog komiteta, mislim da bi bilo dobro da prvo artikulišeš to u neki stav, ovako jednostavno neće ići. Za mene je Dilan čovek koji je dobro promislio i virtuozno artikulisao XX vek u kulturi u kojoj sam utemeljen. Ako je nekome niska, neka je 

Mislim, i Chopin je popularna muzika. Ali, ovde se hoce nesto drugo reci.

Ako je tako, onda smo saglasni. Ja uopšte ne znam šta je to niska književnost.

mislim da je niska knjizevnost ali takodje ne vidim zasto ne bi mogla da dobije nobela.

zvezdo evo ga dobar intervju sa helmutom lachenmannom.

https://van-us.atavist.com/lachenmann?utm_content=buffer53199

ovaj deo je narocito zanimljiv. prica o moricconeu i onda ga pitaju...

AND IS IT ART?

Not as emphatically as, say, Ligeti’s “Apparitions,” or the movement “Träumerei” from Schumann’s “Kinderszenen.” But it’s art in the sense that it’s a combination of absolute mastery of craft, coupled with a deep originality. Morricone didn’t invent a new musical language. He’s also not a Structuralist or anything. But within the bounds of the old categories—melody, harmony, and rhythm—he found a way to charge them with an energy that I haven’t come across in any other music. For me, he’s a successor to Dimitri Tiomkin, Nino Rota, and Bernard Herrmann. He managed to discover new things in places where I thought everything had already been done to death—and for a long time already. There’s that famous basso ostinato in Pachelbel, and Morricone references it at the organ entrance in “Sacco and Vanzetti”…

Ja sam ovde najmanje strucan za knjizevnost, ali (pored "mastery of craft", ja ne znam koja dimenzija, recimo ovog ispod, je "niska"... nema cak ni ono referentno za rocknroll "zavrti guzicom, mala".) Meni smeta i odrednica "pop", ne sto je netacna, nego je danasnji kontekst "pop"-a nesto sto moze da se stancuje uz pomoc ne kompjutera vec smartfona...

Nisam bas mnogo citao (posebno ne u odnosu na standard ovog foruma, a to skoro nije niko), medjutim citao sam npr Dostojevskog i Sekspira, ja ne vidim po cemu je ovo inferiorno. Tj. mozda je i superiorno (u odnosu na FMD), treba se tako vesto okrenuti na malom prostoru, i... reci tako jako, da se posle toga ne govori. I to u 20-tim godnama zivota. E, sad, da li je za Nobela, ili zasta vec, mislim, meni je to najmanje bitno. Meni je pre pitanje da li je Nobel vredan Dylana.

It's Alright, Ma
Bob Dylan
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon, there is no sense in trying
Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece the hollow horn
Plays wasted words proves to warn
That he not busy being born is busy dying
Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover that you'd just be one more person crying
So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing
As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all, except hatred
Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far that not much is really sacred
Our preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the President of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked
An' all the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it
Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on all around you
You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks they really found you
A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit
To satisfy insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it that you belong to
Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to
For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Do what they do just to be
Nothing more than something they invest in
While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize and say, "God bless him"
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole that he's in
But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him
Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares propaganda, all is phony
While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes must get lonely
My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False goals, I scuff at pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say, "Okay, I have had enough, what else can you show me?"
And if my thought dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only

pa nisam potpuni debil.

mnogo gori umetnici od dilana su uzimali nobela, oko toga se svak na svetu slaze.

ja se pitam kako principijelno dilan moze da se brani kao knjizevnost.

meni je on deo jedne narodske kulture i samim tim je 'pop' u smislu 'popularan'. takodje mislim da je njegova poezija neodvojiva od muzike. bez nje mnogo gubi. sta to znaci za nobela, pojma nemam.

zvezda je zivot wrote:pa nisam potpuni debil.

mnogo gori umetnici od dilana su uzimali nobela, oko toga se svak na svetu slaze.

ja se pitam kako principijelno dilan moze da se brani kao knjizevnost.

Pa evo, rekao je da je pesnik!

Yippee! I’m a poet, and I know it
Hope I don’t blow it

Principijelno - to je književnost ako prihvatimo usmene, bardovske tradicije kao književnost, ne samo na osnovu literarnog stila odvojenog od primarnog medija, već kao narativnu celinu - poeziju praćenu muzikom. Leonard Koen je počeo kao pesnik i relativno kasno počeo da prati sebe na gitari, slično Bulatu Okudžavi. Oni se izjašnjavaju kao pesnici, za razliku od Dilana koji je rekao "i am more of  sing and dance man, ali to ne menja puno na stvari.

Indy wrote:Ja sam ovde najmanje strucan za knjizevnost, ali (pored "mastery of craft", ja ne znam koja dimenzija, recimo ovog ispod, je "niska"... nema cak ni ono referentno za rocknroll "zavrti guzicom, mala".) Meni smeta i odrednica "pop", ne sto je netacna, nego je danasnji kontekst "pop"-a nesto sto moze da se stancuje uz pomoc ne kompjutera vec smartfona...

Nisam bas mnogo citao (posebno ne u odnosu na standard ovog foruma, a to skoro nije niko), medjutim citao sam npr Dostojevskog i Sekspira, ja ne vidim po cemu je ovo inferiorno. Tj. mozda je i superiorno (u odnosu na FMD), treba se tako vesto okrenuti na malom prostoru, i... reci tako jako, da se posle toga ne govori. I to u 20-tim godnama zivota. E, sad, da li je za Nobela, ili zasta vec, mislim, meni je to najmanje bitno. Meni je pre pitanje da li je Nobel vredan Dylana.

It's Alright, Ma
Bob Dylan
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon, there is no sense in trying
Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece the hollow horn
Plays wasted words proves to warn
That he not busy being born is busy dying
Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover that you'd just be one more person crying
So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing
As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all, except hatred
Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far that not much is really sacred
Our preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the President of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked
An' all the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it
Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on all around you
You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks they really found you
A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit
To satisfy insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it that you belong to
Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to
For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Do what they do just to be
Nothing more than something they invest in
While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize and say, "God bless him"
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole that he's in
But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him
Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares propaganda, all is phony
While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes must get lonely
My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False goals, I scuff at pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say, "Okay, I have had enough, what else can you show me?"
And if my thought dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only

meni se cini da je ovde kljucna druga recenica kada kaze za moricconea da nije izmislio novi jezik ili bio radikalni inovator ali to zapravo nije ni bitno.

Benny Lava wrote:

zvezda je zivot wrote:pa nisam potpuni debil.

mnogo gori umetnici od dilana su uzimali nobela, oko toga se svak na svetu slaze.

ja se pitam kako principijelno dilan moze da se brani kao knjizevnost.

Pa evo, rekao je da je pesnik!

Yippee! I’m a poet, and I know it
Hope I don’t blow it

Principijelno - to je književnost ako prihvatimo usmene, bardovske tradicije kao književnost, ne samo na osnovu literarnog stila odvojenog od primarnog medija, već kao narativnu celinu - poeziju praćenu muzikom. Leonard Koen je počeo kao pesnik i relativno kasno počeo da prati sebe na gitari, slično Bulatu Okudžavi. Oni se izjašnjavaju kao pesnici, za razliku od Dilana koji je rekao "i am more of  sing and dance man, ali to ne menja puno na stvari.

naprotiv, za mene je to jako vazno. koen je sebe smatrao pesnikom i zato je objavljivao poeziju i romane.

kada kazes da ara guler sebe ne vidi kao lik umetnika vec kao dokumentaristu, to je tacno, stavise, mnogi cenjeni fotografi fotografiju ne smatraju umetnoscu ali sebe uglavnom smatraju fotografima. sad, ako umetnost vise ima iakav razlog za postojanje, i fotografija i bob dilan su vrhunski vazna umetnost za proteklih pola veka. medjutim, bob dilan je stvarao u okvirima umetnosti koja ima koliko-toliko svoje institucije pravila i tradiciju (bez obzira na to sto je voleo remboa). dakle, mozda nije pravo pitanje kako se dilan principijelno brani kao pesnik nego ako je dilan pesnik, kako recimo godar nije pesnik?

visoka umetnost je naravno deesencijalizovana vec 100 godina i ono sto drzi koliko-toliko autonomne umetnosti su tradicije i institucije, misljenja i prakse na koje se umetnik kaci i u okviru kojih deluje i samorazumeva se. misim mozemo dilana da gledamo ko pesnika i tolstoja ko prestige tv, histerijski relizam ko sociologiju, ali sta iko, sem svedske akademije, dobija od toga?

Ja nemam problem da Dilana prihvatim kao književnost (mada nisam siguran da on sebe tako shvata), ali  da je inferioran u odnosu na Dostojevskog ili Šekspira - inferioran je. Kao i skoro svi ostali.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3642416/Bob-Dylan-is-a-genius-but-hes-no-poet.html

zvezda je zivot wrote:pa nisam potpuni debil.

mnogo gori umetnici od dilana su uzimali nobela, oko toga se svak na svetu slaze.

ja se pitam kako principijelno dilan moze da se brani kao knjizevnost.

Па кад већ не уме да пева...

Pozdravljam dodeljivanje nagrade Bobu. Da li bi ovakvo otvorenije shvatanje knjizevnosti omogucilo da jednog lepog dana Nobela dobije recimo i autor stripa?

Cestitala Sanda a Vida Ognjenovic se zali sto su Brega i Bajaga ispusili

Predsednica Srpskog PEN centra i potpredsednica Međunarodnog PEN-a Vida Ognjenović izjavila je Tanjugu da "žiri počinje polako da se šali sa nama".

"Ja sam veliki fan Boba Dilana, išla sam na njegov koncert u Beogradu, ali mislim da su Bajaga i Bregović ovoga puta uskraćeni za Nobelovu nagradu", rekla je Ognjenović.

До сада су се зајебавали са наградом за мир, сада су прешли и на књижевност. Уосталом, ко више чита књиге?

Ma, tu je, u stvari pitanje, ko je koga dostojan. Nobel se češe uz popularnu kulturu. Koliko bi ljudi uopšte obratilo pažnju na to ko je dobio Nobela za književnost da nije u pitanju Dilan?

Па то. Дотле се догурало од нпр. Толстојевих времена, када је књижевност у питању. Но сада имамо неке друге ствари, твитераше и сл. Мислим, не рентујем за "добрим старим временима", него се култура изместила, и Нобелове категорије су понешто превазиђене. Ово им је неки накарадни покушај да "ухвате прикључак".

pa da, zato je smesno. jer nobel nikad nije bio prikljcen. misim s izuzetkom beketa, uspeli da su preskoce sve najznacajnije pisce 20. veka (ono prust, dzojs, virdzinija vulf, borhes...). o pesnicima da ne govorimo.


inace ne slazem se s tekstom iz telegrafa posto pomalo esencijalizuje poeziju (dela en karson recimo ne bi pripadala poeziji po tim pravilima, kao ni ovog kenijca recimo.) ta pitanja treba da se posmatraju materijalisticki, da ne kazem socioloski.

No Country wrote:До сада су се зајебавали са наградом за мир, сада су прешли и на књижевност. Уосталом, ко више чита књиге?

Онако одокативно, рекао бих да више читају ови што добију за књижевност него ови што добију за мир.