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    Virus

    Ferenc Puskás

    Posts : 11764
    Join date : 2014-10-27
    Location : kraljevski vinogradi

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    Post by Ferenc Puskás Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:11 pm

    rumbeando wrote:Šta piše u radu - polazimo od pretpostavke da vrlo mali procenat populacije dospeva u bolnice:
    Our overall approach rests on the assumption that only a very small proportion of the population is at risk of hospitalisable illness

    Šta piše u članku FT-a - rezultati modela kažu da vrlo mali procenat populacije dospeva u bolnice:
    New epidemiological model suggests the vast majority of people suffer little or no illness

    Virus - Page 13 3405963423
    Danas naslovi u češkim medijima, "znanstvenici tvrde...".  Virus - Page 13 1727922752 Inače meni budi nadu ono naselje od 3000 ljudi u Venetu, mislim da se zove Vo ili tako nekako, gdje su višekratno testirali sve i došli do saznanja da asimptomatičnih ima 50-75%. S druge strane Lombardija, Španija, NY kao šumski požar. Definitivno treba istražiti, makar rezultati dali municiju pristalicama lapota za burzovni index.


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    Ha rendelkezésre áll a szükséges pénz, a vége általában jó.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:13 pm

    Još jedna osoba umrla (3 danas prijavljene), 48 godina, u D. Mišoviću.
    Ferenc Puskás

    Posts : 11764
    Join date : 2014-10-27
    Location : kraljevski vinogradi

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    Post by Ferenc Puskás Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:13 pm

    Bendegúz Somogyi wrote:
    U Češkoj su prije 10 dana radili brze testove i vrlo promućurno slali briseve također u lab. Pouzdanost brzih testova 20%.


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    Ha rendelkezésre áll a szükséges pénz, a vége általában jó.
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:21 pm

    Mislim da je Kon pre 10ak dana na jednoj konfi rekao da jedan od razloga što su radili malo testova je taj što su radili samo one po preporuci SZO, ne te razne brze testove.
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

    Posts : 7676
    Join date : 2020-03-05

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:28 pm

    kapetanm wrote:Pa prijavi gde treba ako se ne postupa po ps.
    Ako taj tvoj lekar smatra da je greska u nacinu nek se suprotstavi tamo

    Mislim da sam u prvoj recenici onog posta na koji si odgovorio rekao da lekari u Americi razmatraju tu opciju. Evo gde sam to video :link

    Moja poenta je bila da ne rade nesto sto se ne radi u svetu.
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:32 pm

    приговор онима који су путовали, иако се за овај вирус знало још крајем, ајде почетком године

    тај приговор долази са исте конференције за штампу где нам је препоручиван Милано почетком овог месеца

    као да се тилтујемо свако јутро
    rumbeando

    Posts : 13817
    Join date : 2016-02-01

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    Post by rumbeando Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:33 pm

    Opinion
    Coronavirus outbreak

    The UK's coronavirus policy may sound scientific. It isn't

    Nassim Nicholas Taleb and Yaneer Bar-Yam

    Dominic Cummings loves to theorise about complexity, but he’s getting it all wrong


    When, along with applied systems scientist Dr Joe Norman, we first reacted to coronavirus on 25 January with the publication of an academic note urging caution, the virus had reportedly infected fewer than 2,000 people worldwide and fewer than 60 people were dead. That number need not have been so high.

    At the time of writing, the numbers are 351,000 and 15,000 respectively. Our research did not use any complicated model with a vast number of variables, no more than someone watching an avalanche heading in their direction calls for complicated statistical models to see if they need to get out of the way.

    We called for a simple exercise of the precautionary principle in a domain where it mattered: interconnected complex systems have some attributes that allow some things to cascade out of control, delivering extreme outcomes. Enact robust measures that would have been, at the time, of small cost: constrain mobility. Immediately. Later, we invoked a rapid investment in preparedness: tests, hospital capacity, means to treat patients. Just in case, you know. Things can happen.

    The error in the UK is on two levels. Modelling and policymaking.

    First, at the modelling level, the government relied at all stages on epidemiological models that were designed to show us roughly what happens when a preselected set of actions are made, and not what we should make happen, and how.

    The modellers use hypotheses/assumptions, which they then feed into models, and use to draw conclusions and make policy recommendations. Critically, they do not produce an error rate. What if these assumptions are wrong? Have they been tested? The answer is often no. For academic papers, this is fine. Flawed theories can provoke discussion. Risk management – like wisdom – requires robustness in models.

    But if we base our pandemic response plans on flawed academic models, people die. And they will.

    This was the case with the disastrous “herd immunity” thesis. The idea behind herd immunity was that the outbreak would stop if enough people got sick and gained immunity. Once a critical mass of young people gained immunity, so the epidemiological modellers told us, vulnerable populations (old and sick people) would be protected. Of course, this idea was nothing more than a dressed-up version of the “just do nothing” approach.

    Individuals and scientists around the world immediately pointed out the obvious flaws: there’s no way to ensure only young people get infected; you need 60-70% of the population to be infected and recover to have a shot at herd immunity, and there aren’t that many young and healthy people in the UK, or anywhere. Moreover, many young people have severe cases of the disease, overloading healthcare systems, and a not-so-small number of them die. It is not a free ride.

    This doesn’t even include the possibility, already suspected in some cases, of reccurrence of the disease. Immunity may not even be reliable for this virus.

    Worse, it did not take into account that the duration of hospitalisation can be lengthier than they think, or that one can incur a shortage of hospital beds.

    Second, but more grave, is the policymaking. No 10 appears to be enamoured with “scientism” – things that have the cosmetic attributes of science but without its rigour. This manifests itself in the nudge group that engages in experimenting with UK citizens or applying methods from behavioural economics that fail to work outside the university – yet patronise citizens as an insult to their ancestral wisdom and risk-perception apparatus. Social science is in a “replication crisis”, where less than half the results replicate (under exact same conditions), less than a tenth can be taken seriously, and less than a hundredth translate into the real world.

    So what is called “evidence-based” methods have a dire track record and are pretty much evidence-free. This scientism also manifests itself in Boris Johnson’s chief adviser Dominic Cummings’s love of complexity and complex systems (our speciality) which he appears to apply incorrectly. And letting a segment of the population die for the sake of the economy is a false dichotomy – aside from the moral repugnance of the idea.

    As we said, when one deals with deep uncertainty, both governance and precaution require us to hedge for the worst. While risk-taking is a business that is left to individuals, collective safety and systemic risk are the business of the state. Failing that mandate of prudence by gambling with the lives of citizens is a professional wrongdoing that extends beyond academic mistake; it is a violation of the ethics of governing.

    The obvious policy left now is a lockdown, with overactive testing and contact tracing: follow the evidence from China and South Korea rather than thousands of error-prone computer codes. So we have wasted weeks, and ones that matter with a multiplicative threat.

    • Nassim Nicholas Taleb is distinguished professor of risk engineering at New York University’s Tandon School of Engineering and author of The Black Swan. Yaneer Bar-Yam is president of the New England Complex System Institute

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/25/uk-coronavirus-policy-scientific-dominic-cummings?CMP=share_btn_tw
    plachkica

    Posts : 16552
    Join date : 2014-11-06

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    Post by plachkica Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:51 pm

    sejlor, negde si pitala za šetnju, evo odgovora


    bela maca

    Posts : 11343
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    Post by bela maca Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:56 pm

    neki ljudi koje znamo(tm) su na tw rekli da su ih panduri oterali kući one večeri kad je vučić histerisao o tome


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    most of us probably not getting better
    but not getting better together
    disident

    Posts : 15556
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    Post by disident Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:59 pm

    kako traje rat na nivou slina vucic


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    Što se ostaloga tiče, smatram da Zapad treba razoriti
    Jedini proleter Burundija
    Pristalica krvne osvete
    disident

    Posts : 15556
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    Post by disident Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:59 pm

    nego jel sme da se izadje u atrijum zgrade? ozbiljno Virus - Page 13 1399639816


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    Što se ostaloga tiče, smatram da Zapad treba razoriti
    Jedini proleter Burundija
    Pristalica krvne osvete
    Erős Pista

    Posts : 82762
    Join date : 2012-06-10

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    Post by Erős Pista Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:02 pm

    Erzsébet Biszak wrote:neki ljudi koje znamo(tm) su na tw rekli da su ih panduri oterali kući one večeri kad je vučić histerisao o tome


    Pa rec suverena je zakon. 

    U picku materinu.


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    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    rumbeando

    Posts : 13817
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    Post by rumbeando Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:04 pm

    European Union member states have been rebuked by Brussels for only “looking out for themselves” in the early phases of the coronavirus crisis.

    Ursula von der Leyen, the head of the European commission, told the European parliament that too many countries had failed to help their neighbours when the virus first struck Europe. She referred to export bans on critical medical equipment, as well as the closure of borders, which created delays in moving food and medical supplies around the bloc. She said:

    The story from the last few weeks is partly a painful one to tell. When Europe really needed to be there for each other, too many initially looked out for themselves. When Europe really needed an all-for-one spirit, too many initially gave an only-for-me response. And when Europe really needed to prove that this is not only a fair weather union, too many initially refused to share their umbrella.

    A crisis without borders cannot be resolved by putting barriers between us and yet this is exactly the first reflex that many European countries have.

    The speech, made hours before a conference call summit of EU leaders on Thursday, was a shift in tone from the head of the EU executive, who has so far praised EU countries’ “solidarity”.

    Von der Leyen said Europe was now “stepping up”, pointing to Germany’s decision to bring French and Italian patients to German hospitals, as well as similar help offered by Luxembourg to France.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/26/coronavirus-live-news-update-world-lockdown-global-deaths-india-uk-us-australia-china-latest-updates?page=with:block-5e7c9a218f08af215f6fb9ed#block-5e7c9a218f08af215f6fb9ed
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:14 pm

    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:16 pm

    да ли је неко поручивао маске/рукавице преко алија?
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

    Posts : 7676
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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:18 pm

    @Bendeguz: Sta u ovom kontekstu znaci "repatriated"?
    @Talason: Ja sam preko ebaya, i to je funkcionisalo savrseno.
    boomer crook

    Posts : 37663
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    Post by boomer crook Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:23 pm

    pogledaj one mucenike s tajlanda.


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    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:24 pm

    To znaci dovlacenje svojih gradjana u maticnu zemlju? OK.


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    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    паће

    Posts : 41651
    Join date : 2012-02-12
    Location : wife privilege

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    Post by паће Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:26 pm

    Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:@Bendeguz: Sta u ovom kontekstu znaci "repatriated"?

    Не знам како другачије наго "вратили кући". Укратко, најурили.


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       electric pencil sharpener is useless, electric pencils don't need to be sharpened at all
       И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

    Posts : 7676
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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:29 pm

    Eto naucih novu englesku rec dana. Hvala dobri ljudi.


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    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    avatar

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    Post by Nino Quincampoix Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:36 pm

    Ne znam, mene niko nije najurio iz Francuske.
    Margit Savović

    Posts : 2437
    Join date : 2012-02-11

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    Post by Margit Savović Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:37 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    plachkica wrote:У Републици Србији је до 15 часова 26. марта 2020. године регистровано укупно 457 потврђених случајева COVID 19.

    Од последњег извештаја до 15 часова 26. марта 2020. године тестирани су узорци 295 особa од којих je 73 позитивнo и  222 негативнo на нови корона вирус.

    До 15 часова 26. марта 2020. године, у националној референтној лабораторији Института Торлак тестирано је укупно 1456 особа које су испуњавале критеријуме дефиниције случаја.

    20% Onako...
    Koja je poenta gledanja promene u broju zarazenih ako se ne testira cela populacija ili nasumicni uzorak? 

    Ja predlazem ovom skupu da samo i jedino prati broj umrlih, posto nemamo podatke o hospitalizovanima. 

    I sad malo obeshrabrujucih podataka: 
    Spanija je sa 3650 skocila na 4090 u poslednja 24h. Prosecna trodnevna stopa umiranja joj je 27%. Italija je kad je imala toliki broj umrlih rasla po prosecnoj trodnevnoj stopi od 16%. 

    SAD na 1000 umrlih prosecna trodnevna stopa rasta 35%, dok su Italija, Spanija i Francuska u tom periodu imale rast umrlih od 27-28%. 

    Mrvica svetla za FR:
    Francuska sa 1300 umrlih, prosecna trodnevna stopa je 25%. Italija i Spanija su na tom broju bile na 26-27%. 

    Mislim da ce Spanija da pretekne Italiju. Virus - Page 13 1949538119 


    Sto se tice broja zarazenih, mislim da je broj mnooogo veci od ovoga sto se izbacuje, ali to ne bi bio metodoloski problem ako bi taj faktor kojim mnozimo registrovane da dobijemo stvarne bio konstantan. Problem je u promenljivoj selekciji ko se testira i obuhvatu ljudi koji se testiraju. Zato treba potpuno, potpuno zaboraviti na zvanicne brojeve o zarazenima. 

    Sto se mene tice, u Bergamu i Milanu su verovatno svi zarazeni.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:38 pm

    паће wrote:
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú wrote:@Bendeguz: Sta u ovom kontekstu znaci "repatriated"?

    Не знам како другачије наго "вратили кући". Укратко, најурили.
    Иначе би било “repatriated citizens from 26 countries”, etc. Оно, увек постоји могућност да неко типка на енглеском који не познаје баш најбоље.
    bemty

    Posts : 3849
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    Post by bemty Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:43 pm

    Mau wrote:

    Ja predlazem ovom skupu da samo i jedino prati broj umrlih, posto nemamo podatke o hospitalizovanima. 

    mau, nazalost razlicite zemlje imaju razlicite kriterijume o tome sta se ubraja u smrt od korone. npr, ako je neko bio u terminalnoj fazi raka i dobio ovaj virus i umro - u nekim zemljama se to ubraja u koronu, u drugima ne.


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    Warning: may contain irony.
    rumbeando

    Posts : 13817
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    Post by rumbeando Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:43 pm

    Italija je probila stopu smrtnosti od 10% u odnosu na registrovane slučajeve (7503/74386).

    Stopa smrtnosti u odnosu na zatvorene slučajeve iznosi 44,5%.

    Confirmed: 74,386
    Deaths: 7,503
    Recovered: 9,362
    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

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