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    Rat u Ukrajini

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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:12 am

    ne razumem, ja imam sve. evo kvotujem

    On the Road to Putinlandia
    Petro Poroshenko, the president of Ukraine, surveys the damage done by Russia and asks for ‘a miracle’ of U.S. arms.

    By BERNARD-HENRI LÉVY
    Feb. 13, 2015 6:59 p.m. ET
    360 COMMENTS
    The meeting was scheduled for that very evening—the evening before the Minsk summit this week—in Petro Poroshenko’s office at the presidential palace in Kiev.

    But the moment my colleague Gilles Hertzog and I arrive at the Kiev airport and step on the tarmac, my phone rings.

    It is Valeriy Chaly, the Ukrainian president’s deputy chief of staff, who is already in Belarus for the summit.

    “Stay where you are. Whatever you do, don’t go into town. I can’t tell you anything on the phone. Protocol is coming to pick you up.”

    We sit in a deserted waiting room where a converted duty free is selling bad coffee and bars of the Rohsen chocolate, ubiquitous in Ukraine, on which Petro Poroshenko made his fortune.

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    After two hours, the security ballet begins—men in black, headsets in the ear, long, ultra-slim briefcase in hand, a routine that several decades in the planet’s hot spots have taught me signifies the imminent arrival of the Boss.

    From there, everything moves quickly. The men in black assume battle stations as we charge back onto the tarmac, where a jet sits with its twin engines running. We scramble up the ramp at the rear. A security man leads us to the forward cabin, where Petro Poroshenko is waiting. The Ukrainian president is barely recognizable in his khaki T-shirt, camouflage pants and military boots—but mostly because of an almost worrisome pallor, something that I have not seen on him before.

    “Sorry about all the mystery, but except for him”—Mr. Poroshenko gestures to Gen. Viktor Muzhenko, the Ukrainian army’s commander in chief, who is also in uniform—“nobody knows where we’re going. Security reasons. But you’ll see. It’s awful. And I want you as witnesses.”

    The flight, headed southeast, lasts an hour.

    We are headed to the Donetsk region, where, the president tells me, vicious shelling of a civilian area has just claimed several dozen victims.

    The conversation turns to the summit in Minsk, Belarus, where the leaders of Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine will meet.

    “Tomorrow at this time you’ll be face to face with Putin. What are you going to say to him?”

    “That I will yield on nothing,” Mr. Poroshenko replies. “That neither Ukraine’s territorial integrity nor its right to Europe are negotiable.”

    “And if he persists? If he won’t abandon his idea of federalizing the areas now in the hands of the separatists?”

    “Then I’ll walk out and submit the question to public opinion and to the United Nations. We are not Ethiopia in 1935 or Czechoslovakia in 1938 or one of the little nations sacrificed by the great powers at Yalta. We’re not even your friend [Alija] Izetbegovic, who accepted the partition of Bosnia in Dayton.”

    I tell him that the difference this time is that France, under François Hollande, is with him. He says he knows that.

    I remind him that Germany contracted an ineradicable debt with respect to Ukraine (seven million dead in World War II alone) and that Chancellor Merkel cannot fail to honor it. He nods as if to say that he knows that, too, but is a little less sure of it.

    In any event, he feels strongly that his country has paid too dearly for its freedom and independence to accept any form of diktat. “I am hoping with all my heart for a peace agreement, but we are not afraid of war. Didn’t your General de Gaulle say that great people, in dark times, have no better friends than themselves?”

    We spend the rest of the flight discussing the formal statement that he will make at the opening of the summit, where the fate of his country will be hanging in the balance. It is a little after 10 p.m. when we land in Kharkov.

    About 30 armored vehicles are waiting for us near the plane.

    And off we go in convoy across the deserted plains of the Dnieper to Kramatorsk. After three hours of fairly easy going, the last 30 miles are a frozen track rutted by military convoys.

    No lights to be seen.

    Not a soul stirring.

    The chilling atmosphere of a dead city.

    And then, suddenly, a clutch of poor people warming themselves around a fire.

    Here, the middle of the city had been the target of a Smerch rocket fired from a distance of more than 30 miles in the early afternoon.

    Here, and within a radius of about 900 yards, the giant antipersonnel weapon released its rain of minirockets, killing 16 people and wounding 65.

    And here I discover another Petro Poroshenko: no longer the military leader from the plane; still less the billionaire president that I accompanied to the Élysée Palace a year ago; but a ravaged man, livid in the floodlights illuminating the scene. He listens as survivors recount the hellish whistle of the rocket, the women returning from the market who were mowed down by the deluge of pellets, the panic in the streets as people rushed for shelter, tripping over bodies, the brave mother who covered her child with her body and was killed, the arrival of rescuers, the anguish that another rocket could follow.

    “What a disaster,” he groans.

    He repeats it several times: “What a disaster . . . We are kilometers from the front. There’s no one here but civilians. This isn’t war—it’s slaughter. This isn’t a war crime; it’s a crime against humanity.”

    And then, standing at the edge of the crater formed by a rocket that had failed to explode, Mr. Poroshenko—suddenly immense and strangely colossal because of the bulletproof vest that his aides had him don under his jacket—points at the engine of death as if it were his personal enemy and adds: “A monster of that size, outlawed by the Geneva Convention, the separatists don’t have those. That could only be the Russians.”

    He repeats, a grim smile freezing his features. “The Russians. When I think that the Russians will be there in Minsk tomorrow and will have the audacity to talk about peace . . .”

    A doctor, his arms bare even though the temperature is well below zero, approaches to escort us to the nearby hospital emergency room.

    The president lingers at the bed of each of the injured, sometimes asking questions, sometimes offering sympathy, sometimes, with the hardiest, trying to joke. I think I even see him give a quiet blessing to an old woman as she hands him the fragments that had been removed from her legs, saying, “Here, Petro, you give these to Putin. Tell him they’re from Zoya in Kramatorsk.”

    We make a last stop, far from the city, at the military headquarters of the general staff of the Donetsk region. In a vast building entirely covered with camouflage net are dozens of officers, helmeted Herculeses, their faces furrowed and exhausted, some asleep on their feet with their backs to the wall, still clutching their weapons. And there Mr. Poroshenko resumes the role of war leader. He disappears into the map room with his top officers, where he gives orders for the counteroffensive that will have to be launched if the Minsk summit fails.

    It is 3 a.m.

    Military intelligence fears the launch of another rocket attack. In any event it is time to go. We take the same route back, though it seems even more desolate.

    Once we return to the plane, I tell President Poroshenko that I had dinner the night before in Paris with a former ambassador to Ukraine who is advocating deliveries of weapons—and who believes that the Ukrainian armed forces are in a tough spot, especially in the Debaltsevo pocket, where thousands of troops are menaced on three sides.

    “He’s not wrong there,” Mr. Poroshenko responds with a smile, digging into the cold cuts that the flight attendant has just brought to him. “But make no mistake: The time is long past when the navy at Sebastopol and the barracks at Belbek and Novofedorivka gave up without firing a shot. That’s the only advantage of war: You learn how to wage it.”

    I also tell him that many in the U.S. and Europe doubt the capacity of his soldiers to make good use of the sophisticated weapons that eventually may be delivered to them. At this, he guffaws and, after exchanging a few words in Ukrainian with his chief of staff, says:

    “Well, tell them, please, that they’ve got it wrong. We would need a week, no more, to take full possession of the equipment. Know that, because we had no choice, our army is about to become the best, the bravest, and the most hardened force in the region.”

    From that point on, he darkens again only when I mention the uphill battle that his American friends will have to fight before any equipment can be delivered: Congress will have to reapprove the Ukrainian Freedom Support Act that it first passed on Dec. 11. It is an appropriation bill to release the $350 million in military aid that was approved. Final approval will be needed from President Obama, whose tendency to procrastinate in such matters is well known. And a decision will need to be made about whether the equipment can be taken from existing stocks or will have to be manufactured, which would take even more time.

    “I know all that,” Mr. Poroshenko mutters, closing his eyes. “I know. But maybe we’ll get a miracle. Yes, a miracle.”

    That reminds me that Petro Poroshenko is a practicing Christian, a deacon in civilian life. On the presidential campaign trail last year, in Dnepropetrovsk and elsewhere, before every meeting, I watched him find the nearest church and take a moment to kneel and pray.

    ***
    The idea also crosses my mind that the skilled strategist that he has become—the civilized man whom circumstances have obliged to join the admirable club of reluctant heroes who make war without wanting to—is possibly thinking that what he most needs now is to gain time. Perhaps gaining a few weeks would be the chief advantage of the accords that, without for an instant trusting Vladimir Putin’s word, he is going to sign.

    Minsk. Is it a fool’s bargain?

    Will the agreement he signs be a false one that, like last September’s, stops the war for just a month or two?

    Of course. Deep down, he knows it. His statement after the signing of the accord was simple: “The main thing which has been achieved is that from Saturday into Sunday there should be declared without any conditions at all a general cease-fire.”

    For the time being, the nightmare will recede a bit.

    It is nearly dawn when we finally land in Kiev. And President Poroshenko has only a few hours to make it to that summit where, one way or another, he has a rendezvous with history.

    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:15 am

    That reminds me that Petro Poroshenko is a practicing Christian, a deacon in civilian life. On the presidential campaign trail last year, in Dnepropetrovsk and elsewhere, before every meeting, I watched him find the nearest church and take a moment to kneel and pray.


    Ovo je odvratnije nego što sam mislio.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:17 am

    rat podivljalih malogradjanskih bigota, sa obe strane.

    danas sam naleteo na podatak da su u DNR i LNR uzurpirali 14 objekata Jehovinih svedoka. obrazlozenje: "jedina vera kod nas sme da bude pravoslavna"
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:24 am

    Eto vidiš, Porošenko bi bio dobrodošao. Fin čovek, vernik.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    Ointagru Unartan

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    Post by Ointagru Unartan Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:29 am

    Hvala Vaso.

    Neke stvari se menjaju, BHL ostaje isti: lesinar i piroman. Lesinar, jer je dosao da ugrabi malo licne slave koristeci tudju nesrecu (a uvek pokusava da se predstavi kao kljucna figura, koji licno poznaje sve aktere i cije savete dobri momci slusaju). Piroman, jer huska na rat (Francuzi i Nemci su sa vama, nabodi ga, Porosenko), verovatno zato sto zna da sto je gore sranje, vecu prodju ima njegova patetika.


    _____
    "Ne morate krenuti odavde da biste dosli tamo. Moguce je krenuti odavde i vratiti se ponovo tu, ali preko onoga tamo."
    Aca Seltik, Sabrana razmisljanja o topologiji, tom cetvrti.

    My Moon Che Gavara.
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:38 am

    nije tako jednostavno. da, on je lesinar i piroman ali je deo kruga lesinara i piromana koji su nastali na anti-totalitarnom diskursu kraja sedamdesetih i kraja radikalne politike u francuskoj. to su oni novi filozofi u koje je u blazenom neznanju teofil ubrojao i badjua. to je kao kada bi neko pomesao macke i pse.


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:41 am

    Pa da, hladnoratovci u stalnoj potrazi za novim neprijateljem slobode. Zapravo je Teofil upravo na tom tragu.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:44 am

    Teofil uvrstio Badjua u nove filozofe?

    mogo je bar Vikipediju da procita pre pisanja teksta.

    edit: prezupčio


    Last edited by Gusztav Vege on Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:48 am

    A ne, Vikipedija je za površne umove internet genracije, a ne za intuitivne sozercavače suštine kao što je on.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:50 am

    Edit: Sve mi se pobrkalo, pardon, učini mi se da je na Wikipediji greškom pisalo da je Badju skovao termin Novi filozofi pa sam izvukao neke dementne zaključke iz toga.


    Last edited by Gusztav Vege on Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:56 am

    Ali otkud Badiju?


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:00 am

    pa filozof je i nesto drustveno aktivan. naravno, vise teofilov cvetan ima veze sa novim filozofima ali ko te pita. sve te neke termine je neko izmislio, sto kaze tzv. sergej.


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:10 am

    rusija ce mozda imati jos potencijalnih "trojanskih konja" u eu, nakon sirize. 

    The presidential candidate from Poland's social democrats says it's time for Poland to work on improving diplomatic relations with Russia.

    Polish Democratic Left Alliance presidential candidate Magdalena Ogorek criticizes what she believes is an overly hostile position by Poland in relation to Russia, suggesting that Poland and the West bear some of the blame for the breakdown of relations.


    Speaking at a Sojusz Lewicy Demokratycznej (SLD) event inaugurating her campaign for the upcoming May 10 presidential elections on Saturday night, Ogorek explained that whatever happens, "Russia is and will remain our neighbor," and that Poland could not afford to be considered "enemy No.1" by the Russian media. Furthermore, she noted that unlike incumbent Bronislaw Komorowski, she "would not be afraid to answer messages from Vladimir Putin," and would even take the initiative and "pick up the phone and call him."

    Ogorek told attendees that while her party condemns what it sees as Russian interference in Ukraine, the need for communication and negotiation is ever-present in this time of crisis.

    Ogorek, a 35-year-old former civil servant, television presenter, actress and lecturer with a doctorate in history, is presently running at around 10-12 percent in the polls, and is up against popular incumbent Komorowski, who is expected by political analysts to win in either the first or second round in the upcoming elections.

    Polish and Western political commentators alike have criticized the SLD's decision to make Ogorek the party's candidate, noting her youth and political inexperience, as well as trivialities like the fact that her name means 'cucumber' in Polish. Ogorek first appeared on the political scene in 2011, running, unsuccessfully, for a seat in the country's parliament. But the once powerful SLD has decided to take the risk with Ogorek, party leader Leszek Miller calling the campaign "a symbol of change" and "the opening up of Polish politics to a young European generation." In addition to May's presidential elections, the country will also face parliamentary elections in October, and Ogorek's calls to "unleash the power of youth and entrepreneurs" are believed to be geared as much toward the October vote as toward the one in May.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150215/1018314558.html#ixzz3Ruu3rwc6




    Rat u Ukrajini - Page 10 NiuqmUF
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:08 am

    sramim se priznati ali... Rat u Ukrajini - Page 10 1403342043


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:01 am

    sto bi se sramio

    cekamo sejlor da baci neki strucni blogomodni comment Rat u Ukrajini - Page 10 1399639816
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:17 am

    burkholderia mallei wrote:sto bi se sramio

    Pa to, objektivno je dobra. Sramim se priznati ™ je rezervisan za pojedince koji su objektivno gledano aprivlacni, ili pak totalne lujke.
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:34 am

    burkholderia mallei wrote:cekamo sejlor da baci neki strucni blogomodni comment Rat u Ukrajini - Page 10 1399639816

    Пази кад сам прочитао "блогомдани цемент". А данас сам се још и одмарао, као оно празник па се ваља.

    (њтф из штруцни?)


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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:05 am

    Kerovi iz Blica krenuli u propagandu punom parom:


    http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/535196/IKONA-RATA-Neustrasiva-ukrajinska-Jovanka-Orleanka
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:50 am

    pa nije, ima taj neki manekenski i slovenski fejs, nista jedinstveno ili specificno, bila je tv lice ranije. nije da se licno lozim na takav izgled, ali mi nije za sramim se.
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:55 am

    Оно што смо неки дан причали о пунијим и празнијим ногама... ово је управо оно што спада у "симпатично али (ме) не пали".

    Тако да ме више занима шта има да каже него шта има да покаже.


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    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:06 pm

    Kandidatkinja levice u Poljskoj može i da kaže i da pokaže šta god hoće, nema 'leba da se najede od toga.
    PopeЧе

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    Post by PopeЧе Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:28 pm

    шумидер-модер wrote:
    burkholderia mallei wrote:

    80-тe i 2 чрвене.
    Добро, 3 за словенско братство.

    I tada sam govorio da ce nam se zli samoupravljacki obicaj da omalovazavamo Poljake, Cehe i Rumune (i danas se pitam kako su se Madjari izvukli) strasno obiti o glavu. Ubrzo je pametnjakovicima stigao bratoubilacki balkanski rat ali vidim da jos ima onih koji, ne da nisu izvukli pouke iz toga, nego bi ponovo mahali crvenima i bazooka zvakama ispred nesrecnih podanika Varsavskog pakta.
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    Post by Guest Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:44 pm

    Filipenko wrote:Kandidatkinja levice u Poljskoj može i da kaže i da pokaže šta god hoće, nema 'leba da se najede od toga.


    to je tacno, ali izbori su u maju, a do tada sveopste ludilo moze da ode u ko zna kom pravcu. kgb ocigledno ne spava.
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:52 pm

    Дочим ција, наравно, хрче...


    _____
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       анархеологистика: оно кад не знаш где си га затурио, и кад.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:55 pm

    Govorimo o zemlji Donalda Tuska, unuka naciste koji je vladao donedavno, a sada upravlja EU u ime Baba Švabe. Nema tu leba, niti će se FSB/KGB usrećiti puno...čisto gubljenje resursa.

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