Rat u Ukrajini

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Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:40 pm

zasto nemamo ovaj topic?

danas je jedan od onih dana.

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Heavy shelling in the rebel stronghold of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday afternoon killed at least five people and damaged a hospital, six schools and five kindergartens, local officials said.



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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by William Murderface on Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:48 pm

Ja shvatam da na svaku novu vest iz Ukrajine mogu da odgovorim samo na jedan način.



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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:28 pm

OSCE posmatraci su potvrdili da je Lugansk pre par dana gadjan municijom sa kasetnim punjenjem, ali ta vest se skoro nigde ne pojavljuje u zapadnim medijima.


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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by William Murderface on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:54 pm

Skrenuo mi pažnju artist formerly known as Buffalo na ovaj komadić liberal hawk-eraja:

Putin must be stopped. And sometimes only guns can stop guns
Timothy Garton Ash
The time for diplomacy will come again, but it is not now: Ukraine urgently needs military support, and a counter to Russian propaganda


‘Preoccupied by Greece and the eurozone, Europe is letting another Bosnia happen in its own front yard.’ Photograph: Tass/Barcroft Media
Sunday 1 February 2015 17.58 GMT

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Vladimir Putin is the Slobodan Milošević of the former Soviet Union: as bad, but bigger. Behind a smokescreen of lies he has renewed his drive to carve out a puppet para-state in eastern Ukraine.
Innocent bystanders are killed in the Black Sea port of Mariupol. In besieged Debaltseve, a woman scoops water from a giant puddle in the road. The rubble that was once Donetsk airport recalls a scene from martyred Syria. About 5,000 people have already been killed in this armed conflict, and more than 500,000 uprooted. Preoccupied by Greece and the eurozone, Europe is letting another Bosnia happen in its own front yard. Wake up, Europe. If we have learned anything from our own history, Putin must be stopped. But how?
In the end, there will have to be a negotiated solution. German chancellor Angela Merkel and foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier have been right to keep trying diplomacy, but even they concluded in mid-January that it wasn’t worth going to meet Putin in Kazakhstan. On Saturday another attempt to agree a ceasefire failed in Minsk. Diplomacy’s time will come again, but it is not now.
We should ratchet up the economic sanctions against Russia. Combined with the impact of the fallen oil price, these are already having a significant effect. Despite a small wobble from the new Greek government, the EU last week kept its unity on extending sanctions. Won’t that feed a siege mentality in Russia? Yes, but then the Putin regime is stoking that mentality with its nationalist, anti-western propaganda. If the threat did not exist, Russian television would invent it.

Like Milošević, Putin is prepared to use every instrument at his disposal, with no holds barred

Like Milošević, Putin is prepared to use every instrument at his disposal, with no holds barred. In his war against the west he has deployed heavy military equipment, energy-supply blackmail, cyber-attack, propaganda by sophisticated, well-funded broadcasters, covert operations and agents of influence in EU capitals – oh yes, and Russian bombers nosing up the English Channel with their transponders off, potentially endangering civilian flights.
There is a Polish saying which translates roughly as “we play chess with them, they play kick-arse with us”. (Dupniak, or kick-arse, is a Polish game in which people try to identify who kicked them from behind.) This is the problem of the democratic west in general and the slow-moving, multi-nation EU in particular. It was recently exemplified in a woefully unrealistic chess paper on strategy towards Russia prepared for Federica Mogherini, the EU’s new high representative for foreign and security policy.
In the long run, Putin will lose. The people who will suffer most from his folly will be the Russians, not least those in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. But the long run for skilful, ruthless dictators in large, well-armed, resource-rich and psychologically bruised nations can be quite long. Before he goes, more blood and tears will flow unquietly down the river Donets.
So the challenge is to shorten that period and stop the mayhem. To do this Ukraine needs modern defensive weapons to counter Russia’s modern offensive ones. Spurred on by John McCain, the US Congress has passed a Ukraine Freedom Support Act which allocates funds for the supply of military equipment to Ukraine. It is now up to President Obama to determine the timing and composition of those supplies.


Ukraine crisis: dozens die as rebels shell Mariupol

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A report by a group including Ivo Daalder, a former US ambassador to Nato, and Strobe Talbott, the veteran Russia expert, identifies the equipment needed: “counter-battery radars to locate long-range rockets, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), electronic countermeasures for use against opposing UAVs, secure communications capabilities, armoured Humvees and medical support equipment”.
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Only when Ukrainian military defence can plausibly hold Russian offence to a stalemate will a negotiated settlement become possible. Sometimes it takes guns to stop the guns.
Won’t such arms supplies further nourish a Russian paranoia of encirclement? Yes, but Putin is feeding the paranoia already, untroubled by the facts. He recently told students in St Petersburg that the Ukrainian army “is not an army, it is a foreign legion, in this case a Nato foreign legion”.
The EU could never secure unanimity on such military supplies. If at all, it would have to be done by individual countries. Although this may bring back the old jibe that “America does the cooking and Europe the washing up”, there is a case for the US doing most of the heavy military supply.
The US has the best kit, it is probably in the best position to control its use, and is less vulnerable to bilateral economic or energy-supply pressures.
The overall burden-sharing would be fair. European economies take most of the pain of sanctions, since they have more invested with Russia; they will provide a lot of the economic support Ukraine needs if it is to survive; and they are doing most of the diplomacy. In fact, McCain and Merkel make a perfect hard cop, soft cop combination.

We need to counter this propaganda. No one is better placed to do this than the BBC

There is one other area in which Europe in general, and Britain in particular, can do more. Broadcast media are usually classed as soft power, but they are as important to Putin as his T-80 tanks. He has invested in them heavily. Among Russian speakers – including in eastern Ukraine and the Russian-speaking minorities in the Baltic states – he has used television to impose his own narrative of a socially conservative, proud Russia threatened by fascists in Kiev, an expansionist Nato and a decadent EU.
Last year a Russianist of my acquaintance was sitting naked and at ease in the hot tub with a friend of his in Moscow after several vodkas, as is the Russian custom, when this highly educated Russian asked: “So tell me, honestly, why do you support the fascists in Kiev?”
We need to counter this propaganda not with lies of our own but with reliable information and a scrupulously presented array of different views. No one is better placed to do this than the BBC. The US may have the best drones in the world, and Germany the best machine tools, but Britain has the best international broadcaster.
And there is an appetite for it: the BBC’s sadly diminished online Russian-language service still has an audience of nearly seven million, and during the crisis its Ukrainian-language audience has tripled to more than 600,000.
In his excellent report on the future of news, James Harding, the head of BBC News, makes a strong commitment to growing the World Service. Immediately stepping up its Russian and Ukrainian offerings would be a good way for the BBC to show that it will put its money where its mouth is. Without compromising the BBC’s independence, the British government could also chip in some extra funding.
If ever there were people in need of accurate, fair, balanced information, it is Russians and Ukrainians today. None of these things will stop Putin tomorrow, but in combination they will work in the end. Dictators win in the short run, democracies in the long.



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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:51 pm

NATO formira šok trupe za istočne granice, za sada na nivou brigade.
polako se sklapaju kockice budućeg konflikta.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:56 pm

i još jedna važna vest: grivna je puštena niz vodu, centralna banka Kijeva je odustala od dnevnih intervencija na kursu. ekonomija Ukrajine ulazi u free fall.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Filipenko on Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:46 am

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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Roger Sanchez on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:16 am

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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Roger Sanchez on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:18 am

Gusztav Vege wrote:NATO formira šok trupe za istočne granice, za sada na nivou brigade.
polako se sklapaju kockice budućeg konflikta.
Branit ćemo u Sandomierzu... we shall fight them on the San, on the Vistula, on the Rhine.. we shall never surrender!
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Filipenko on Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:43 am

DNR se proglasila pravnom naslednicom Donjecko-Krivoroške Sovjetske Republike.



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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:54 am

Moze bit da Putin salje poruku Kijevu. Dokle moze ici ako ne pristanete na pregovore.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:32 pm






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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Filipenko on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:39 pm

Novi predsednik Rumunije, tihi nastavnik iz provincije koji je "kao underdog pobedio favorita" - igrom slučaja, gle, etnički Nemac - objavio da Rumunija mora da se naoružava zbog ruske pretnje.

Nekada su Rumuniji i Bugarskoj Nemci postavljali kraljeve, danas predsednike republika.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by ostap bender on Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:55 pm

nevencana supruga se vratila iz moskve sa izlozbe i kaze da ljudi tamo pricaju o ratu, spekulisu o tome da se planira rusenje putina i svi se boje eskalacije na zapadu. neki weird kosmonauti, drugari dragana zivadinova, su puni nekih dr.stangelove prica o tome kako su se ovih dana otvarali i zatvarali atonski silosi kao upozorenje eye in the sky usa satelitima.


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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:44 pm

big bum u Donjecku. lokalci su u panici spekulisali da je u pitanju takticki nuklearni udar, ali je po svemu sudeci udar na hemijsko postrojenje.

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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:46 pm

inače mislim da je Minhen potrošena priča i da sada sledi novi talas eskalacije.

činjenica da je Kijev isekao pobunjene oblasti iz svog pravnog i ekonomskog poretka (nema isplata penzija i plata) govori da je zrelo za "male zelene" i proširenje intervencije.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by William Murderface on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Jebem ti evropske vrednosti, svetu Rusiju, kulturu i civilizaciju i sve. Ja ovo ne mogu da pratim više. Svako novo sranje je za mene dokaz potpunog civilizacijskog bankrota svih koji imaju ikakve veze sa ratom u Ukrajini.


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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Filipenko on Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:35 pm

Super je to potez nacista, neka se plaše da će ih ubiti radijacija ali će zapravo pocrkati od hemikalija.


Naravno, nigde usplahirenih zapadnih medija da javljaju brejking njuz o pokušaju masovnog pomora stanovništva.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:53 pm

Da. Ova eksplozija bi se tretirala kao vest nedelje da se dogodila na teritoriji pod kontrolom Kijeva.

Inače ovo je primer kako se ne hendluje rat u Ukrajini, i kako se ne hendluje nijedan vladar nigde na svetu. Ovo nije diplomatija nego potpirivanje rata. Već su probali ovo sto puta, rat ulazi u drugu godinu postaje sve opasniji, i rade i dalje jedno te isto.


The European Union has announced new sanctions against Russian officials and Ukrainian militants, but will postpone enforcing for a week, pending new peace talks in Minsk on Wednesday, according to French foreign minister Laurent Fabius.
"The principle of these sanctions remains but the implementation will depend on results on the ground. We will see by [next] Monday and see how the meeting in Minsk went," said French foreign minister Laurent Fabius.



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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by паће on Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:09 pm

Filipenko wrote:Naravno, nigde usplahirenih zapadnih medija da javljaju brejking njuz o pokušaju masovnog pomora stanovništva.

Ех, Украјина је то... последњи пут кад им се то десило, после су покушавали то да прогласе холокаустом, но су дошли у сукоб са носиоцима копирајта за реч па им није дозвољено, ови се ускопистили да имају монопол. Зато су морали да и даље користе своју реч, исто на холо-, која не носи ни један посто рекламе у односу на ову.


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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:20 pm

Pomešao si ovo skroz, Paće. Ukrajinski holokaust je formalni istorijski pojam, u njemu je između 1941. i 1945. stradalo oko tri miliona Ukrajinaca i oko milion Jevreja, a činjenica da su pokolji vršeni u skladu sa doktrinom o depopulaciji te zone jasno ukazuje na genocidnu nameru.

Golodomor je nešto drugo, istoričari koji tvrde da je u pitanju ciljani projekat depopulacije ukrajinskog sela (po mom mišljenju, bez prave osnove za takav sud) od početka su koristili taj termin.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by паће on Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:52 pm

Gusztav Vege wrote:Pomešao si ovo skroz, Paće. Ukrajinski holokaust je formalni istorijski pojam, u njemu je između 1941. i 1945. stradalo oko tri miliona Ukrajinaca i oko milion Jevreja, a činjenica da su pokolji vršeni u skladu sa doktrinom o depopulaciji te zone jasno ukazuje na genocidnu nameru.

Golodomor je nešto drugo, istoričari koji tvrde da je u pitanju ciljani projekat depopulacije ukrajinskog sela (po mom mišljenju, bez prave osnove za takav sud) od početka su koristili taj termin.

Негде пре неког, ајде једноцифреног, броја година неки Украјинци су покушали да холодомор такође прогласе за холокауст. Не знам која је политичка позадина тога била ни коико је то било широко, до нас тамо сигурно није допрло ништа са лица места, али се врло јасно чуло како су добили по прстима кад су покушали. Покушај је већ заборављен, само подсећам.


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памтим савршено - не сећам се кад сам последњи пут нешто заборавио
They say you can't have a cake and eat it too. Then they say "have a cake".
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:20 pm

Aha, ok. Pa dobro, ne bi me čudila takva inicijativa.

Jedino mi je žao zbog toga što se u poplavi rusofilije danas često zaboravlja da je Ukrajina tokom Drugog svetskog rata izložena teroru kakav je viđan veoma retko u istoriji, da je imala izvanredno žilav partizanski pokret i da je govor o Ukrajincima kao o nemačkim trabantima istorijski neutemeljen. Na jednog sledbenika Bandere dolazilo je 50 partizana i 1.000 nevinih civilnih žrtava.
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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Santino on Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:36 pm

radi se o njihovom danasnjem neshvatljivom odricanju od tog nasledja i slavljenju bandere kao maltene oca nacije, a sve zbog - rusofobije.


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Re: Rat u Ukrajini

Post by Santino on Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:37 pm

William Murderface wrote:Jebem ti evropske vrednosti, svetu Rusiju, kulturu i civilizaciju i sve. Ja ovo ne mogu da pratim više. Svako novo sranje je za mene dokaz potpunog civilizacijskog bankrota svih koji imaju ikakve veze sa ratom u Ukrajini.

ja bih tu psovku suzio na onu stranu koju pregovori ne zanimaju i koja zeli rat po svaku cenu.


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I don't have pet peeves, I have major psychotic fucking hatreds

Re: Rat u Ukrajini

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