Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Argh


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by паће on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:32 pm

bemty wrote:
dovoljno da mi nije bilo bitno sto brlja po politici, estetici, ekonomiji. to mi je i tada delovalo naivno i povrsno (i vodjeno politikom s kojom se ne slazem), mada ni sama nemam neko posebno znanje o tome. a on je kompletno otisao u tom smeru, nazalost. kapiram da je njemu zanimljivije da se bavi onim sto manje zna, da mu se cini da stice dublje zivotne uvide. svi smo takvi. problem je sto o tome pise kao da je prvi koji je sve to otkrio.

Има код Стругацких једно место где кажу "ако кувар кува а аутомеханичар поправља камионе, они ће да заврше посао рутински за неколико сати а остатак дана ће зазјавати; ако им замените места, имаће посла цео дан, много ће научити и напредоваће у сваком погледу".


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:02 pm

Ointagru Unartan wrote:
bemty wrote: kapiram da je njemu zanimljivije da se bavi onim sto manje zna, da mu se cini da stice dublje zivotne uvide.

Mozda mu je to zanimljivije zato sto pseudonaucno pravdanje neoliberalizma donosi vise popularnosti i para nego spajanje kognitivne psihologije sa bihejvioralnom genetikom.

stvarno ne sticem taj utisak. meni on uopste ne deluje namazano (ni u pisanju ni u licnom kontaktu), nego naivno iskreno kako to samo moze da bude neko ko nije mnogo zavirivao u svet manje privilegovanih. i ljudi koji su slusali njegove kurseve mi kazu da je vrlo blag covek. a i za ljude koji rade na fakultetima je prilicno uobicajeno da svakih 5-6-7 godina promene glavni fokus interesovanja. dodje do zasicenja. nego imam osecaj da je dosao u onu zivotnu fazu kad on i njegovi jednako privilegovani beli muski drugari sede i raspravljaju o smislu zivota i sve tu nesto bitno imaju da kazu. samo sto on pri tom i pise, pa to dodje na uvid javnosti.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bruno sulak on Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:19 pm

ja sam citao onaj neki pinkerov tekst u odbranu srednjeklasnih vrednosti gde krece u neki trip down the memory lane i pise o svojoj simpa quiry porodici koja eto nedeljom sedi za istim stolom i klopa i sta je tu lose. nekako on brani sve vreme svoj ukus, svoja secanjs i svoja politicka ubedjenja zavrcuci ruku nauci da to ucini.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Djamolidine Abdoujaparov on Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:35 am

gle čuda, Pinkera vole najbogatiji 

My new favorite book of all time
By Bill Gates 
| January 26, 2018


For years, I’ve been saying Steven Pinker’s The Better Angels of Our Naturewas the best book I’d read in a decade. If I could recommend just one book for anyone to pick up, that was it. Pinker uses meticulous research to argue that we are living in the most peaceful time in human history. I’d never seen such a clear explanation of progress.

I’m going to stop talking up Better Angels so much, because Pinker has managed to top himself. His new book, Enlightenment Now, is even better.
Enlightenment Now takes the approach he uses in Better Angels to track violence throughout history and applies it to 15 different measures of progress (like quality of life, knowledge, and safety). The result is a holistic picture of how and why the world is getting better. It’s like Better Angels on steroids. 

Pinker was generous enough to send me an early copy, even though Enlightenment Now won’t be released until the end of February. I read the book slowly since I loved it so much, but I think most people will find it a quick and accessible read. He manages to share a ton of information in a way that’s compelling, memorable, and easy to digest.

It opens with an argument in favor of returning to the ideals of the Enlightenment—an era when reason, science, and humanism were touted as the highest virtues. (Gates Notes Insiders can get a preview of this section of the book.)

I’m all for more reason, science, and humanism, but what I found most interesting were the 15 chapters exploring each measure of progress. Pinker is at his best when he analyzes historic trends and uses data to put the past into context. I was already familiar with a lot of the information he shares—especially about health and energy—but he understands each subject so deeply that he’s able to articulate his case in a way that feels fresh and new.

I love how he’s willing to dive deep into primary data sources and pull out unexpected signs of progress. I tend to point to things like dramatic reductions in poverty and childhood deaths, because I think they’re such a good measure of how we’re doing as a society. Pinker covers those areas, but he also looks at more obscure topics. 
Here are five of my favorite facts from the book that show how the world is improving:


[list="box-sizing: border-box; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 15px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 40px;"]
[*]You’re 37 times less likely to be killed by a bolt of lightning than you were at the turn of the century—and that’s not because there are fewer thunderstorms today. It’s because we have better weather prediction capabilities, improved safety education, and more people living in cities. 
[*]Time spent doing laundry fell from 11.5 hours a week in 1920 to an hour and a half in 2014. This might sound trivial in the grand scheme of progress. But the rise of the washing machine has improved quality of life by freeing up time for people—mostly women—to enjoy other pursuits. That time represents nearly half a day every week that could be used for everything from binge-watching Ozark or reading a book to starting a new business.
[*]You’re way less likely to die on the job. Every year, 5,000 people die from occupational accidents in the U.S. But in 1929—when our population was less than two-fifths the size it is today—20,000 people died on the job. People back then viewed deadly workplace accidents as part of the cost of doing business. Today, we know better, and we’ve engineered ways to build things without putting nearly as many lives at risk.
[*]The global average IQ score is rising by about 3 IQ points every decade. Kids’ brains are developing more fully thanks to improved nutrition and a cleaner environment. Pinker also credits more analytical thinking in and out of the classroom. Think about how many symbols you interpret every time you check your phone’s home screen or look at a subway map. Our world today encourages abstract thought from a young age, and it’s making us smarter.
[*]War is illegal. This idea seems obvious. But before the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no institution had the power to stop countries from going to war with each other. Although there have been some exceptions, the threat of international sanctions and intervention has proven to be an effective deterrent to wars between nations.
[/list]

Pinker also tackles the disconnect between actual progress and the perception of progress—something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. People all over the world are living longer, healthier, and happier lives, so why do so many think things are getting worse? Why do we gloss over positive news stories and fixate on the negative ones? He does a good job explaining why we’re drawn to pessimism and how that instinct influences our approach to the world, although I wish he went more in depth about the psychology (especially since he’s a psychologist by training). The late Hans Rosling explains this more fully in his excellent new book Factfulness, which I plan to review soon. 

I agree with Pinker on most areas, but I think he’s a bit too optimistic about artificial intelligence. He’s quick to dismiss the idea of robots overthrowing their human creators. While I don’t think we’re in danger of a Terminator-style scenario, the question underlying that fear—who exactly controls the robots?—is a valid one. We’re not there yet, but at some point, who has AI and who controls it will be an important issue for global institutions to address. 

The big questions surrounding automation are proof that progress can be a messy, sticky thing—but that doesn’t mean we’re headed in the wrong direction. At the end of Enlightenment Now, Pinker argues that “we will never have a perfect world, and it would be dangerous to seek one. But there is no limit to the betterments we can attain if we continue to apply knowledge to enhance human flourishing." 

The world is getting better, even if it doesn’t always feel that way. I’m glad we have brilliant thinkers like Steven Pinker to help us see the big picture. Enlightenment Now is not only the best book Pinker’s ever written. It’s my new favorite book of all time
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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by паће on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:19 am

Наравно да из његове перспективе изгледа да се боље живи. Све може да се докаже методом згодног узорка.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:00 pm

meni se cini da se ovde vode diskusije na dva fronta. 

(disclaimer: citala sam andjele ali ne i novu knjigu, ali po onom sto se pise mi deluje da tu i nema neceg bitno drugacijeg)

po pitanju toga da li je bolje (u proseku gledano) mislim da nema dileme da je u pravu. mozemo da se pitamo da li je prikazao sve bitne kriterijume, da li su proseci kojima barata dovoljno reprezentativni, da li su konkretni podaci razumni (tipa ima li smisla ukljuciti ameriku u prebrojavanje zrtava 2. sv. rata pri poredjenju sa zrtvama tribalnih ratova). ali osnovni trend, da postoji ekonomski napredak, medicinski napredak, da je manje strasno siromasnih, da se manje gine na radnom mestu, da smo sve osetljiviji na nasilje i da nam se koncept ljudskih (i zivotinjskih) prava menja nabolje, mislim da tu ima malo mesta za raspravu. i da se razumemo, ima mnogo ljudi koji ne citaju dalje od ovoga. kad sam upoznala pinkera to je bilo zato sto su ga neki mirovnjaci pozvali u utrecht, srecni ko mala deca sto najzad cuju da neko kaze da ono sto rade nije besmisleno. 

ali glavna kritika se tice onoga sto nije eksplicitno, a to je njegov stav da je neoliberalni kapitalizam najbolji od svih mogucih sistema, i da su zrtve tog sistema prosto kolateralna steta u ime napretka. da je napredak ono sto je bitno, a patnja sekundarna. samo sto je jako tesko hvatati se u kostac s onim sto nije eksplicitno receno (sta sad, on samo prikazuje grafike sa brojem zrtava u drugom svetskom ratu, sta su zapenili, ovo su podaci). i onda tu ima mnogo zuci. posebno jer je on ocigledni predstavnik privilegovane klase, kao uostalom i gejts.

inace ovih dana se vodi zanimljiva rasprava po pitanju antidepresiva. izasla je neka velika meta-analiza prema kojoj svi antidepresivi deluju bolje nego placebo, i mediji su poludeli tvrdeci da nam treba vise lekova. a da se ne lazemo, s medijima i glavni akteri istrazivanja (inace moje kolege). fora je sto je neko pre desetak godina uradio slicnu meta-analizu, sa gotovo jednakim brojkama (po pitanju toga koliko antidepresivi pomazu), i zakljucci su bili upravo suprotni. i u medijima i u clanku - antidepresivi kurcu ne valjaju. tako da je taj skok od podataka do istine vrlo skakljiva stvar, a naucnici poput pinkera nisu preterano osetljivi na to koliko su zakljucci varijabilna stvar. sta sad, imas podatke, ocigledno je sta je nalaz. malo sutra.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:13 pm

Sazela si sustinu. Ja bih dodao samo jos i ovo - njemu se cini da je taj napredak postignut prosto evolucijom (pre svega sirenjem trzisnih odnosa), a previdja revolucionarne pomake i politicku borbu. Kad podjes od toga, onda je jedini logican zakljucak, pusti trziste da radi svoj posao i niste ne diraj.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Mr. Moonlight on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:41 pm

sistem je omogućio da ljudima bude samo ovoliko bolje, umesto da im bude 3x puta bolje


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by ontheotherhand on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:03 pm

Mislim da što se tzv. progresa tiče ima boljih pop science autora od Pinkera.

Npr. Ronald Rajtova Kratka istorija progresa
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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Mr. Moonlight on Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:00 pm

Wright defines progress using the Victorian terms "the assumption that a pattern of change exists in the history of mankind...that it consists of irreversible changes in one direction only, and that this direction is towards improvement".


Tako su stanovnici Uskršnjeg ostrva bili ubeđeni da su ostvarili značajan napredak kada su napravili bolju sekiru.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:10 pm

Steven Pinker Wants You to Know Humanity Is Doing Fine. Just Don’t Ask About Individual Humans.

evo jos malo za wilija 


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:02 pm

Hvala! Pohranjujem u arhivu.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:41 am

The recent revival of ideas about race and IQ began with a seemingly benign scientific observation. In 2005, Steven Pinker, one of the world’s most prominent evolutionary psychologists, began promoting the view that Ashkenazi Jews are innately particularly intelligent – first in a lecture to a Jewish studies institute, then in a lengthy article in the liberal American magazine The New Republic the following year. This claim has long been the smiling face of race science; if it is true that Jews are naturally more intelligent, then it’s only logical to say that others are naturally less so.


The background to Pinker’s essay was a 2005 paper entitled “Natural history of Ashkenazi intelligence”, written by a trio of anthropologists at the University of Utah. In their 2005 paper, the anthropologists argued that high IQ scores among Ashkenazi Jews indicated that they evolved to be smarter than anyone else (including other groups of Jews).


This evolutionary development supposedly took root between 800 and 1650 AD, when Ashkenazis, who primarily lived in Europe, were pushed by antisemitism into money-lending, which was stigmatised among Christians. This rapid evolution was possible, the paper argued, in part because the practice of not marrying outside the Jewish community meant a “very low inward gene flow”. This was also a factor behind the disproportionate prevalence in Ashkenazi Jews of genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs and Gaucher’s, which the researchers claimed were a byproduct of natural selection for higher intelligence; those carrying the gene variants, or alleles, for these diseases were said to be smarter than the rest.

Pinker followed this logic in his New Republic article, and elsewhere described the Ashkenazi paper as “thorough and well-argued”. He went on to castigate those who doubted the scientific value of talking about genetic differences between races, and claimed that “personality traits are measurable, heritable within a group and slightly different, on average, between groups”.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/02/the-unwelcome-revival-of-race-science


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:13 pm



herrnstein i murray napisase celu popularnu knjigu posvecenu rasnim IQ razlikama '94. svi iq-rasisti poput kanazawe, rushtona i slicnih se pozivaju na njih. oni koji se bave istom temom ali su u protivnickom taboru (wicherts, dolan, etc) se isto bave argumentima iz te knjige. pinker i 2004 su tu barely a blip on the radar. kakav nagli revival, wtf.

ili je tvrdnja da rasisti u opstoj populaciji nisu ni razmisljali o iq razlikama od davne proslosti do 2004? opet, wtf.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Quincy Endicott on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:16 pm

ne razumem se mnogo u tematiku ali sam nailazio da je bilo nacista koji nisu smatrali da su Jeverji niza rasa, vec upravo suprotno, superinteligentna visa rasa, i da ih zato treba satrti


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:17 pm

the guardian wrote:No one has successfully isolated any genes “for” intelligence at all,

jedno 700 je izolovano do sada (svaki sa malim doprinosom), jbt. 


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm

The Guardian wrote:As the Edinburgh University cognitive ageing specialist Prof Ian Deary put it, “It is difficult to name even one gene that is reliably associated with normal intelligence in young, healthy adults.” 

a treba da stoji: "kao sto je Ian Deary rekao 2010, pre nego sto se bacio u potragu za takvim genima, koje je nasao u velikim brojevima, sto je i objavio u vise desetina clanaka". 

jbt kako mene deprimira kad ljudi koji dele moje vrednosti uhvate da izvrcu nauku ne bi li dokazali da treba biti dobar covek.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Quincy Endicott on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:23 pm

Gvardijan propo


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Filipenko on Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:45 pm

AshkeNAZI




Pametnome dosta. 
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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Filipenko on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:05 pm

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by паће on Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:36 pm

Filipenko wrote:
AshkeNAZI

Pametnome dosta. 

Дакле постоје нацисти и њацисти?


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bemty on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:52 pm

evo opet nesto za feministu vilijema!

The PowerPoint Philosophe


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:54 pm

Blagodarim!


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by паће on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:05 pm

bemty wrote:evo opet nesto za feministu vilijema!

The PowerPoint Philosophe

Кад видим да је неко "experimental psychologist", пожелим да та особа верује у пакао.


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то ја бришем, некад милице некад не
I want to be Bujumbura for a while. Then I'll can say Bujumbura is a place I've been.

Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

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