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    Rat u Ukrajini

    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Sun Sep 03, 2023 5:05 pm

    https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

    New brigade bears heavy brunt of Russia’s onslaught in Kharkiv Oblast

    by Igor Kossov
    September 1, 2023 1:39

    KHARKIV OBLAST – Fighting throughout Ukraine is grueling, even for hardened veterans. For inexperienced troops recently plucked from civilian life, it's something else altogether.

    Ihor, a former lawyer, recalls that day at the start of August when the Russians attacked the cratered ruins of Novoselivka in Kharkiv Oblast, which his 1st company was defending.

    The attack was well-prepared. The Russian troops scouted out the position with their seemingly limitless drones. When they struck, their mortars zeroed in on what cover remained. A shell dropped into the living room of the house Ihor and a fellow soldier were occupying. They survived because they happened to be in the hall.

    Enemy artillery established fire control over the only roads leading to the village, cutting off medevac and reinforcements.

    As counteroffensive presses forward in southeast, ‘every meter costs a life’

    This left Ihor's unit, with their three weeks of NATO basic training and two months' deployment in Kharkiv Oblast, one-on-one with professional Russian troops with superior firepower.

    The casualties were only recovered by nightfall. An undisclosed number didn't make it, including some of Ihor's friends from the unit.

    "I lost brothers in arms there," he said. "I haven't been back since, and I don't want to go back. What I went through there is just chaos."

    Ihor's company is part of the 32nd Separate Mechanized Brigade, one of the new brigades that Ukraine began staffing at the start of the year. It's also one of the few brigades that are set to hold the northeastern front, while the majority of troops and equipment is stationed on the southern front where Ukraine's slowly pushing forward.

    While it’s doing its duty defending Russia’s push in Kharkiv Oblast, lack of experience and the limits of training and equipment made for a harrowing first two months in the field.

    Before January, the 32nd didn't exist, and the vast majority of its soldiers were civilians who had never shot anyone. Many did not want to be in the army.

    This brigade is deployed to Kharkiv Oblast, over an hour east of Kupiansk — where Russian forces have conducted a big push over the past month and a half. Russian forces were alleged to have up to 100,000 troops that way.

    Soldiers from different brigades told the Kyiv Independent that the Russians in this area are experienced and well-equipped soldiers, extensively stocked with artillery shells and MLRS rockets.

    Soldiers from the 32nd are open about how in over their heads they often feel. The infantrymen talk about being outmatched by the competent and seemingly fearless Russian troops they saw on this axis of attack.

    "Everything is not like what you read in daily briefings and on the news," said Volodymyr, an infantry sergeant with the brigade, who was in the thick of the fighting.

    Like most units, the 32nd is starved for vehicles and artillery ammo. Most of the good equipment is deployed to the counteroffensive on the Zaporizhzhia front.

    It also lacks battlefield experience, from low ranks to commanding officers. Nor do they have many options to draw on somebody else's. The year 2022 ground down Ukraine's supply of experienced warfighters to the point where there can be said to be a shortage.

    "The brigades where the commanders and sergeants are new are getting experience through ongoing field operations," Sergiy Zgurets, the head of the military analytics center Defense Express, said.

    Reached by email, the press services of the Defense Ministry and the Armed Forces said they wouldn't be able to respond to questions on this topic.

    Limits of NATO training

    All the infantrymen of the 32nd brigade had been to Germany to train to NATO standards for three weeks.

    This was an obvious solution. Some of the soldiers here had been excited to go, thinking the training would help them become effective.

    In many ways, it had been.

    The infantry praised the physical training. Press officer Andriy Smiyan and his aide Oleksandr highlighted the life-saving power of tactical medicine training, widely practiced in the West but virtually unknown in Soviet-style armies.

    The training also comes with a full set of gear for each soldier.

    However, the same soldiers who spoke to the Kyiv Independent didn't hide their scorn about how the training prepared them for a war that doesn't exist in Ukraine. They said the NATO officers don't understand the reality on the ground.

    "A NATO infantryman knows he's supported and can advance with the confidence that there's a high likelihood that he won't be killed or maimed," Ihor said.

    The NATO way of war calls for massive preparatory airstrikes and artillery barrages and demining before the infantry is sent in, he added.

    It usually doesn't work that way in Ukraine.

    Between the country's tiny, old air force, ancient T-64s, and a continuing shortage of artillery shells and infantry vehicles, it often falls to infantry to hold the line against Russian probing attacks and occasional assaults, supported by overwhelming artillery and huge numbers of drones.

    Troops said they sometimes struggle to apply NATO small unit tactics because there often isn't enough cover to do so.

    Zgurets said that the instructors in Germany put a lot of emphasis on teaching urban combat. But the skills of how to smoke an enemy out from a trench, how to build an assault group, and coordinate it with artillery and drone support were lacking.

    The style of battle in the Ukrainian countryside, blending World War I trench combat and 21st-century tech and tactics, are only seen in Ukraine — they are outside NATO's wheelhouse.

    Furthermore, the translators that are used often lack a military background and fail to convey accurate commands or responses between instructors and trainees, Zgurets added.

    He said that it would be helpful for some of these instructors to visit Ukraine.

    "European countries can correct their training," Zgurets said. "There has been a mutual understanding of experiences and concerns, and this is the moment when they can be cleared away."

    Retired U.S. Major General Gordon Davis told the Kyiv Independent that training by NATO allies has been "indispensable. While specific tactics and procedures promoted by allied trainers may not have achieved the results that Ukrainian leadership and forces expected, the reason for this shortfall is certainly multi-dimensional."  

    He added that the training abroad is still better than Ukraine can offer and while realism could be improved, it'd take a huge investment for training programs to be able to replicate Russian tactics.

    "Therefore, it is all the more important for Ukraine to invest in the quality of Western provided or supported training by contributing the missing pieces of current combat intelligence and lessons learned from personal Ukrainian sacrifice and success."

    At the infantry positions, Sergeant Volodymyr met the Kyiv Independent wearing the bitterly ironic smile of a man forced to endure too much too quickly.

    "None of the guys will want to talk to you," he said. "They don't want to think about it."

    Volodymyr himself refused to speak, but once Ihor began explaining the situation, he eventually joined the conversation in fragments, adding this or that observation. By the end, Volodymyr can barely contain his bleak descriptions of the vagaries of combat.

    "A heroic feat — to jump out from that basement and shoot aimlessly in their general direction, then end up without an arm or a leg, or just dead?" Volodymyr said. "What's the point?"

    To get to the positions, soldiers have to walk on foot for five kilometers in the dead of night, with no sources of light, while carrying all of their incredibly heavy gear.

    The positions themselves were ruins, with few places to hide. It's dangerous to stick a limb out from what cover remained, let alone go to the bathroom. Because the Russians in this area are relatively sharp, with professional troops and special forces in addition to conscripts from prisons or the general population. They’re well-screened and show little signs of fear.

    "They have night vision drones, Orlans, and other tech; they see everything," Volodymyr said. Many of these drones are equipped with droppable munitions, having learned from the Ukrainians using this technique in 2022.

    The feeling of constantly being watched and targeted is hugely demoralizing for the Ukrainian troops.

    "It locks you up, you want to take certain actions, but you can't because the eye of Sauron is always watching," Ihor said, referencing the villain and master of the orcish horde from the Lord of the Rings.

    The 32nd's tank operators seem a bit less edgy. There's a friendly modesty in how they talk about learning to work in teams, or how one of them got the nickname Sniper when he hit all three targets with his T-64 in a training exercise.

    But they have their own nasty surprises to worry about. A tank platoon commander named Vladyslav recalls how the first time a Ukrainian tried to use a tank radio, the Russians immediately zeroed in on it and buried it in artillery. Since then, they learned never to use communications devices more powerful than a hand-held. Enemy troops are too-well positioned to punish any slip-ups.

    "They (Russians) are sitting on some of the most advantageous positions in the region," said a tank commander with the callsign Yenot.

    The struggles are straightforward. The question of where limitations end and blame begins is more slippery.

    Infantrymen criticized their training as unrealistic for a scenario when you’re out of everything but the enemy.  But most acknowledged that it was helpful in some ways.

    Soldiers also laid blame on their command for specific decisions, for example, taking up a position in a narrow basement that was impossible to escape quickly if the conditions turned life-threatening. Ihor lost some people he knew that way.

    The Defense Ministry and the Armed Forces refused to respond to questions.

    But it's not always that simple. Press officer Smiyan pointed out that the brigade’s commanding officers have to make the best decisions they can with the information they have and live with what happens. Without a core of experienced veterans, the command staff in these brigades is learning on the job just like everyone else, Zgurets said.

    Russia's massive artillery advantage throughout the country and its predominance of drones and electronic warfare on this part of the front, don't help either.

    These explanations make sense but they do nothing to cheer up the men going into battle.

    "The infantry takes the entire brunt on itself,” Ihor said.




    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Sep 03, 2023 5:55 pm

    Ma naravno, u mnogim segmentima mogu oni njih sad da uče i treniraju. Lako je sa easy mode-om gde sve ispred tebe zbrise tvoja avijacija i artiljerija. Tj. lako je ako nisi armija RF.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sun Sep 03, 2023 8:23 pm

    Licno mislim da to nema nikakve veze sa artiljerijom i avijacijom. Ima donekle, ali Amerikanci prosto nikada nisu ratovali sa ozbiljnim podjednako naoruzanim neprijateljem i mislim da nemaju nikakvo combined arms operations razumevanje. Ovi uzasi ukrajinske kontraofanzive su mi jasan pokazatelj toga. Koncentracija velikih kolicina tehnike na malom prostoru, ogroman broj uzaludnih pokusaja proboja, uzasno neorganizovan i slab sistem napredovanja s nepotpunom i slabom pokrivenoscu sopstvenom artiljerijom i avijacijom...Dobra je bila ona izjava Bundesdjenerala koji prica kako Nato uci svoje soldate da zaobilaze minsko polje, a ovamo su minska polja velicine pola Nemacke.

    Recimo, ja mislim da Amerika uopste ne razume sta znaci napredovanje jedne brigade pod paljbom neprijatelja u borbenom stroju. Imaju oni neku teoriju toga i nekakva dokumenta, ali sam prilicno uveren da su radjeni na osnovu WW2 ili u najbolju ruku vijentamskog rata, da su vrlo neadekvatni i da razmaci izmedju jedinica i njihov raspored nemaju veze sa danasnjim trenutkom i kolicinom oruzja koje je ovde u upotrebi. To i pretezno zaostajanje za ruskim naoruzanjem o cemu sam ovde vec pisao (i cemu ste se smejali) su mi veoma interesantni i otreznjujuci elementi ovog rata. Ponovicu jos jednom - izgleda da je Rusija zapravo pobedila Nato u trci u naoruzanju, samo sto toga nikada nije bila svesna, i nije probala da superiorno oruzje omasovi i upotrebi, da li zbog siromastva ili nedostatka volje, nebitno.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sun Sep 03, 2023 8:46 pm

    Tako je pobedila i Nemacka zapadne saveznike "u trci u naoruzanju"
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:50 pm

    Njih i jeste pobedila. Izbacila ih je iz Evrope i sabila na pegavoincestna ostrva. I atomku bi pre njih imala da nije napadala sssr.

    Od ostalih stvari, poljska je pocela sa izrucivanjem vojnosposobnih muskaraca ukrajini, a izgleda da su sve vece sanse (ko bi rekao sem tamo nekog filipenka?) da su dronovi do pskova doleteli iz estonije. Rat u Ukrajini 800920403
    Јанош Винету

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    Post by Јанош Винету Mon Sep 04, 2023 3:04 pm

    Летећи Полип wrote:Ja bi u svaku tu grupu ubacio i po jednog agilnog menadžera!

    Mór Thököly wrote:
    Летећи Полип wrote:Ja bi u svaku tu grupu ubacio i po jednog agilnog IT menadžera!

    Ово није нажалост ни смешно, пун је Линкедин покојних агилних ИТ менаџера. После првих 6 месеци рата почеле су да искачу читуље, наш драги тај и тај, бивши регрутер, менаџер, вођа тима је погинуо. Сада их већ чувају, не троше их као топовско месо него као оператере дронова, ПВО-а, механичаре итд.


    _____
    Burundi is an exception among other nations because it is a country which gave God first place, a God who guards and protects from all misfortune.
    Burundi... opskurno udruženje 20ak levičarskih intelektualaca, kojima je fetiš odbrana poniženih i uvredjenih.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Sep 04, 2023 3:43 pm

    Ma dobro, zajebavamo se malo. I to je hleb od sedam core-a (ovaj smajli je trebalo  Rat u Ukrajini 1861198401 )


    Last edited by Mór Thököly on Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
    паће

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    Post by паће Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:10 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:Ma dobro, zajebavamo se malo. I to je hleb od sedam core-a Rat u Ukrajini 1403342043

    Осма цркла?


    _____
       the more you drink, the W.C.
       И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:58 pm

    Mór Thököly wrote:Ma dobro, zajebavamo se malo.


    Ne.
    Jack Palance

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    Post by Jack Palance Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:02 pm

    Filipenko wrote: izgleda da su sve vece sanse (ko bi rekao sem tamo nekog filipenka?) da su dronovi do pskova doleteli iz estonije. Rat u Ukrajini 800920403
    Otkud ti to? Ja mislim da su doleteli iz Rusije.


    _____
    Činjenica da se između Rusije i Srbije nalazi Ukrajina je dokaz da imamo više sreće nego pameti!
    Улични ходач

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    Post by Улични ходач Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:10 pm

    Filipenko wrote:Njih i jeste pobedila. Izbacila ih je iz Evrope i  sabila na pegavoincestna ostrva. I atomku bi pre njih imala da nije napadala sssr.

    Od ostalih stvari, poljska je pocela sa izrucivanjem vojnosposobnih muskaraca ukrajini, a izgleda da su sve vece sanse (ko bi rekao sem tamo nekog filipenka?) da su dronovi do pskova doleteli iz estonije. Rat u Ukrajini 800920403

    Не би имала. Не тако конспиративни назив за немачки нуклеарни програм, Уранпројект, је био растрзан између више научних института и Универзитета. Ионако ограничени ресурси су тако разбацивани на више страна. Разлог је што врхушка нациста није видела да тренутно може нешто да се постигне са тиме иако су немачки научници први "поцепали" атом 1938. Пројекат није напуштен, сматрало се да треба да се настави и да има потенцијал, али није добио приоритет хитности као у САД "Менхетен пројекат". Види се чак и по консиративности да су га у САД озбиљније схватили.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:09 pm

    Pojavljuju se videi na kojima navodno Celindzeri gore. Valjda ce uskoro biti neka potvrda/demanti Rat u Ukrajini 3363120308
    Solus_Rex

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    Post by Solus_Rex Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:19 pm

    UK is concerned:


    _____
    "Sisaj kurac, Boomere. Spletkario si i nameštao ban pa se sad izvlačiš. Radiša je format a ti si mali iskompleksirani miš. Katastrofa za Burundi čoveče.
    A i deluje da te napustio drugar u odsudnom trenutku pa te spašavaju ova tovarka što vrv ni ne dismr na ribu, to joj se gadi, i ovaj južnjak koji o niškim kafanama čita na forumu. Prejaka šarža."  - Monsier K.
    avatar

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    Post by MNE Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:50 pm

    dobro jel taj osiromašeni uranijum štetan ili nije štetan
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:01 pm

    Bas bezveze, sto su morali da ga unistavaju Rat u Ukrajini 4135669698
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:07 pm

    MNE wrote:dobro jel taj osiromašeni uranijum štetan ili nije štetan

    Štetan je ako si na 2m od njega ili ako rukama radiš nešto sa gelerima 


    Inače bi na Kosovu danas bilo 15 stanovnika.
    паће

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    Post by паће Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:19 pm

    MNE wrote:dobro jel taj osiromašeni uranijum štetan ili nije štetan

    Колико се сећам приче из 2. заливског рата (или беше 1. хм, слабо памтим имена), прц је у томе што је доста тврд и не истопи се тек тако при удару, зато и ради тај пирсинг, ал' у тој количини, ипак је то само кошуљица, зајебан је само онај део који се оструже, измрви и разлети у виду прашине. Не добацује ни то далеко, али ако га удишеш, онда јебига.

    А то што је осиромашен, то значи да је из њега извађен онај изотоп што има атомску тежину +1, а кога обично има око 1%. Нисам хемичар, нисам физичар, нек то погледа неко стручнији.


    _____
       the more you drink, the W.C.
       И кажем себи у сну, еј бре коњу па ти ни немаш озвучење, имаш оне две кутијице око монитора, видећеш кад се пробудиш...
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:17 am

    Rusi su opet gadjali luke na Dunavu. Navodno zele da po svaku cenu sprece izvoz ukrajinskog kokaina.
    Vilmos Tehenészfiú

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    Post by Vilmos Tehenészfiú Wed Sep 06, 2023 5:05 pm

    Nacisti izvoze kokain, Jevreji jedu decu.


    _____
    "Burundi je svakako sharmantno mesto cinika i knjiskih ljudi koji gledaju stvar sa svog olimpa od kartona."

    “Here he was then, cruising the deserts of Mexico in my Ford Torino with my wife and my credit cards and his black-tongued dog. He had a chow dog that went everywhere with him, to the post office and ball games, and now that red beast was making free with his lion feet on my Torino seats.”
    Улични ходач

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    Post by Улични ходач Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:21 am

    ЕУ нуди(моли?) Русији, уз посредовање УН, укидање дела санкција ако Русија буде извозила ђубриво у ЕУ и дозволи извоз житарица из Украјине,

    Die EU-Kommission wollte sich nicht zu Details der Zusammenarbeit mit den Vereinten Nationen äußern. Ein Sprecher bestätigte allerdings, dass die EU gegenüber Russland über die UN ihre Offenheit zum Ausdruck gebracht habe, über eine designierte Tochtergesellschaft der russischen Landwirtschaftsbank eine dauerhaftere, konstruktivere Lösung zu finden. SWIFT-Zahlungen könnten so - im Einklang mit den EU-Sanktionen - für Agrar- und Lebensmittelgeschäfte ermöglicht werden.

     https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien/guterres-getreideabkommen-kompromissvorschlag-100.html
    Jack Palance

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    Post by Jack Palance Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:09 am

    To je greška. Ne treba im nuditi ništa, još manje ih moliti.


    _____
    Činjenica da se između Rusije i Srbije nalazi Ukrajina je dokaz da imamo više sreće nego pameti!
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:06 pm

    US likely to send long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine for the first time: Officials
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Sat Sep 09, 2023 1:54 pm

    Улични ходач wrote:ЕУ нуди(моли?) Русији, уз посредовање УН, укидање дела санкција ако Русија буде извозила ђубриво у ЕУ и дозволи извоз житарица из Украјине,

    Die EU-Kommission wollte sich nicht zu Details der Zusammenarbeit mit den Vereinten Nationen äußern. Ein Sprecher bestätigte allerdings, dass die EU gegenüber Russland über die UN ihre Offenheit zum Ausdruck gebracht habe, über eine designierte Tochtergesellschaft der russischen Landwirtschaftsbank eine dauerhaftere, konstruktivere Lösung zu finden. SWIFT-Zahlungen könnten so - im Einklang mit den EU-Sanktionen - für Agrar- und Lebensmittelgeschäfte ermöglicht werden.

     https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien/guterres-getreideabkommen-kompromissvorschlag-100.html


    Rat u Ukrajini No-yes


    Filipenko wrote:US likely to send long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine for the first time: Officials
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:00 pm

    Što se tiče rata u Ukrajni ja sam neutralan. Žao mi je naroda koji strada.
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Sat Sep 09, 2023 2:06 pm

    Kako li je samo poceo da strada i kako, o kako, bi to moglo prestati.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije

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