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    The Great Unwashed

    Kinder Lad

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    Post by Kinder Lad Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:16 am

    ostap bender wrote:ja mislim da i ta istrazivanja, kao i frnjauove gerusijske intuicije o prirodi helota-naroda, pokazuju da bilo socioloska-intuicija, bilo fol-sratistika ne mogu da misle politiku.

    +1

    Gleaj ovaj fail

    "The strongest populist support," they write, "remains among the petty bourgeoisie — typically small proprietors like self-employed plumbers, or family owned small businesses, and mom-and-pop shopkeepers — not among the category of low-waged, unskilled manual workers."
    Only one of the five economic variables they tested — employment status — correlated well with support for the populist right. That held true even when they controlled for variables like age, sex, ethnic identity, and minority status.
    Then they set up an alternative model, one that tested whether five distinct cultural factors — like anti-immigrant attitudes and authoritarian values — would predict support for the far right. Every single one did.
    In short: There was no good evidence that economic anxiety was driving cultural resentment. 

    Cekaj, pa kakav je ovo zakljucak The Great Unwashed - Page 2 2729202060  Sta, kao "petty bourgeoisie, small proprietors, family owned small businesses, and mom-and-pop shopkeepers" ne mogu da imaju economic anxieties???
    паће

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    Post by паће Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:21 am

    A ту је и додатни моменат, да тих 77000$ (и не заборавимо разлику између просека и медијане) значи само приход а не и салдо. Јер то је управо онај слој који све теже трчи док покушава да држи корак са Џонсовима, и задужен је до грла. Узимају се друге хипотеке на куће (дакле хипотека на отплаћеном делу куће, док је на неотплаћеном још она прва), праве се дозвољени минуси на картицама а камате су да звони глава, сваке недеље поштанско сандуче пуно понуда за рефинансирање (а знају коме да шаљу а коме не). Ти исти су пре десетак година стајали прилично боље, и осећају да им у тој трци неко подмеће ногу. Њима Трамп нуди врло проста објашњења за то.


    _____
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       Морони на власти чешће мењају правила него гаће.
    Kinder Lad

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    Post by Kinder Lad Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:35 am

    Reč je o "perfect storm"-u. Da, mnogi glasaju iz ksenofobnih, rasističkih i sličnih pobuda. Ali je nemoguće ne primetiti da ti pokreti dobijaju značajnu podršku tek posle početka ekonomske krize. 

    Austrija je nešto drugo.


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    alt-lib
    Kinder Lad

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    Post by Kinder Lad Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:39 am

    pa mjktjbm...

    If the Great Recession didn’t cause this, there’s only one obvious explanation: America’s election of a black president. That means we need to turn the "economic anxiety causes racism" theory on its head: It’s racism that causes a certain group of Americans to say the economy is doing badly. Concern about the economy has become, for some, an outlet for anxieties about the country being led by a black man.


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    alt-lib
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:44 am

    Kinder Lad wrote:Reč je o "perfect storm"-u. Da, mnogi glasaju iz ksenofobnih, rasističkih i sličnih pobuda. Ali je nemoguće ne primetiti da ti pokreti dobijaju značajnu podršku tek posle početka ekonomske krize. 

    Austrija je nešto drugo.


    Ma naravno, razlicite ideologije razlicito interpeliraju subjekte. Rasne predrasude nesumnjivo postoje, ali postaju bitne tek kada ih ideologija stavi u prvi plan. A to je u stanju da ucini jer nema ideoloske alternative za te ljude. Alternativa je ova sto ih naziva deplorables.


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    паће

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    Post by паће Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:51 am

    Kinder Lad wrote:pa mjktjbm...

    If the Great Recession didn’t cause this, there’s only one obvious explanation: America’s election of a black president. That means we need to turn the "economic anxiety causes racism" theory on its head: It’s racism that causes a certain group of Americans to say the economy is doing badly. Concern about the economy has become, for some, an outlet for anxieties about the country being led by a black man.

    А који мајстор за извртање... треба му дати да кипује шодер на руке, очас би он то.


    _____
       I drove a škodilak before it was cool.
       Морони на власти чешће мењају правила него гаће.
    Ointagru Unartan

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    Post by Ointagru Unartan Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:05 am

    No Country wrote:Not impressed. "Председнички циклуси" звуче помало натегнуто. Теорија о конзервативцима као чистој реакцији је вероватно тачна, али заправо не објашњава големи ентузијазам ни tea party, ни Трампових фанова. Такође ни не помишља да би дотична опција можда могла и да победи, и шта би то значило за Америку.

    Ево једног читања које више личи на ово моје: http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit. 

    This research finds that, contrary to what you’d expect, the "losers of globalization" aren’t the ones voting for these parties. What unites far-right politicians and their supporters, on both sides of the Atlantic, is a set of regressive attitudes toward difference. Racism, Islamophobia, and xenophobia — and not economic anxiety — are their calling cards.

    Nije lose, stavise taj deo koji si citirao bih potpisao, ali ne uklapa se sve. Naprimer, nije jasno kakva je veza teze o "resentment of the privileged" i ovoga:

    "Voters under the age of 34, who research suggests are the least racially prejudiced group in the UK, supported staying in the EU by margins similar to those seen among racial minorities. Sixty percent of voters over age 65, who harbor the highest levels of prejudice, supported leaving."


    _____
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    Aca Seltik, Sabrana razmisljanja o topologiji, tom cetvrti.

    My Moon Che Gavara.
    Kinder Lad

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    Post by Kinder Lad Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:09 am

    Radagast wrote:
    No Country wrote:Not impressed. "Председнички циклуси" звуче помало натегнуто. Теорија о конзервативцима као чистој реакцији је вероватно тачна, али заправо не објашњава големи ентузијазам ни tea party, ни Трампових фанова. Такође ни не помишља да би дотична опција можда могла и да победи, и шта би то значило за Америку.

    Ево једног читања које више личи на ово моје: http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit. 



    Nije lose, stavise taj deo koji si citirao bih potpisao, ali ne uklapa se sve. Naprimer, nije jasno kakva je veza teze o "resentment of the privileged" i ovoga:

    "Voters under the age of 34, who research suggests are the least racially prejudiced group in the UK, supported staying in the EU by margins similar to those seen among racial minorities. Sixty percent of voters over age 65, who harbor the highest levels of prejudice, supported leaving."

    Sad cu ti objasniti kakva je veza, a nije (samo) ta da su oni manje rasisti. glasaci ispod 34 su u proseku nesrazmerno bolje obrazovani i informisani od onih iznad 65 te im je savrseno jasno (i onima koji jesu...rasisti) da clanstvo u EU ima vrlo malo do nimalo veze sa tim koliko ce  biti muslimana i crnaca i arapa i ostalih visible minorities.
    Ointagru Unartan

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    Post by Ointagru Unartan Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:16 am

    William Murderface wrote:
    Ma naravno, razlicite ideologije razlicito interpeliraju subjekte. Rasne predrasude nesumnjivo postoje, ali postaju bitne tek kada ih ideologija stavi u prvi plan. A to je u stanju da ucini jer nema ideoloske alternative za te ljude. Alternativa je ova sto ih naziva deplorables.

    Sustina.


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    "Ne morate krenuti odavde da biste dosli tamo. Moguce je krenuti odavde i vratiti se ponovo tu, ali preko onoga tamo."
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    Post by Guest Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:44 pm

    Want to Understand Right-Wing Rage? Go Back to Plato




    The rise of right-wing political parties on both sides of the Atlantic has proved almost incomprehensible to mainstream political commentators. How can modern people in an integrated, cosmopolitan world embrace localism, racialism, and tribal identity?

    The migrant crisis, and attacks perpetrated by Muslim terrorists, are commonly cited as reasons for right-wing parties’ successes in Europe. Likewise it has been suggested that the right wing in the United States favors protectionist policies in response to lost manufacturing jobs.

    But from a perspective that assumes that political movements are driven by the desire to maximize self-interest (what economists call “utility”) the political commitments of the new right wing are irrational or perverse. How can citizens of wealthy states take up such “backward” attitudes against economic immigrants and political refugees when the costs of admitting such migrants are relatively low, and European birthrates have fallen below the replacement fertility rate? How can those living in advanced capitalist economies raise the specter of natural sovereignty against international trade agreements which would benefit those in the position to invest abroad?

    While polls and anecdotes offer evidence that reactionary movements are on the rise, they offer little understanding of their cause. Liberal academics and journalists increasingly resort to a form of non-explanation via invective: right-wingers must be ignorant, racist, or simply stupid. But why is this movement growing globally, and why now?

    It is helpful to return to the categories of ancient political psychology: appetite, thumos, and wish. By collapsing these three forms of desire under the single concept of “preference,” contemporary social and political theorists have missed that they are differently motivated and in turn motivate different kinds of actions. In particular, “appetitive” desires — for sensual pleasures like food and sex — are distinct from the thumotic desire for honor and revenge. Making a sharp distinction between thumotic and appetitive desires can help one understand the current state of world politics, regardless of where one’s sympathies lie.

    Thumos already had the sense, in Homer’s Iliad, of the seat of emotion and life — a man’s “heart” or central principle of motion — but in Plato’s Republic the term takes on a distinctive political and psychological meaning. In the course of dividing the human psyche into a calculating, rational part and an irrational, appetitive part, Socrates asks where we should put the part that gives rise to anger. His partners in the conversation agree immediately that thumos cannot be rational. But Socrates cites a story to show that thumos cannot be identified with appetite, either:

    Leontius, the son of Aglaion, was going up from the Piraeus along the outside of the North Wall when he saw some corpses lying at the executioner’s feet. He had an appetite to look at them but at the same time he was disgusted and turned away. For a time he struggled with himself and covered his face, but, finally, overpowered by the appetite, he pushed his eyes wide open and rushed towards the corpses, saying, “Look for yourselves, you evil wretches, take your fill of the beautiful sight!” (Republic Book IV, 439e-440a Grube and Reeve Trans.)

    The dramatic struggle reported here is not between Leontius’ rational and irrational parts, but between two parts of the irrational psyche: appetite and thumos. Leontius’ necrophilic lust for the corpses is pitted against his thumotic sense of shame and disgust at himself for harboring such appetites. This internal conflict, which Socrates introduces to show that thumos can oppose appetite and thus that the two should not be identified, comes to a conclusion with the triumph of appetite, which is dramatically identified by Leontius with his eyes. But his thumotic reaction against his own lust is telling: feeling disgust at its presence, he reacts in rage, cursing his eyes as evil.

    Plato argues that the thumos of one who believes he has acted wrongly will not be roused to anger. But when a man feels that he has been wronged, his thumos “boils up.” As he fights for what he feels to be just, he will endure hunger, cold, and other hardships (Republic 440c-d.). Aristotle also picks up on both the boiling, “hot” aspect of thumos and its reactivity or responsiveness to perceived wrongs. In his psychological work, he says that physiologists might define anger as a boiling of the blood around the heart, while the dialectician will define anger as “desire to pay back with pain.” (De Anima I.1, 403a25-403b2). Though Aristotle’s purpose is to raise a distinction between two ways of talking about emotions — one concerning the underlying material of an emotion, the other its reason — both definitions link anger to thumos. To desire to pay someone back with pain depends on the feeling that one has been unjustly wronged and that revenge is the proper response. Aristotle’s physiological account also follows Plato in characterizing the material part of this event as a “zesis” — a “boiling over” of rage.

    According to contemporary philosophers of thumos, this seething anger is a quintessential political phenomenon: the response to perceived incursions into what a political actor takes to be his own. In his 2007 Jefferson Lecture, Harvey Mansfield wrote that “Politics is about what makes you angry, not so much about what you want.” For a want to count as political, the political agent must feel entitled to what he wants. As Mansfield puts it, “When you complain, it is not so much that you lack what you want as that you feel slighted or offended in not having what is rightfully yours.” For Mansfield, thumos allows us to distinguish between defending what one feels entitled to as one’s own, and seeking gains. The forgetting of thumos by political thinkers has had the disastrous result of conflating self-righteous defense with “maximizing” appetitive behavior. This makes violent reaction to perceived threats incomprehensible.

    In his 2006 book Rage and Time, Peter Sloterdijk takes what is arguably an even more radical stance, turning his critique against democratic capitalism itself. Whereas for Mansfield, thumos has been forgotten in political theorizing, Sloterdijk argues that post-war capitalism itself is unable to allow for expressions of rage. Crucially for Sloterdijk, consumerism, while meeting all the demands of appetite, is unable to offer an outlet for thumotic energies. The result is an inherent instability in the modern state, exemplified by the multiplication of reactionary and terrorist groups in the midst of the most developed capitalist societies.

    If we adopt thumos as a term of political significance, then we can begin to offer answers to the questions with which we began, and which could not easily be addressed with the standard liberal or utilitarian vocabularies. Threatened or real reactionary violence against migrants, for example, does not arise from a lack of liberal values or a perverse set of preferences, but from a feeling that the phenomenon of mass migration is an incursion on what is proper to the citizens of the state. Reactions against a trade policy, while sometimes motivated by worries about lost jobs, have a more immediate cause in the feeling that they do damage to the nation-state as an authoritative decision-maker. Moreover, if they are rooted in thumos, such reactions will not be satisfied by a simple change in policy: reactionary movements by nature aim to “pay back with pain” those who have insulted them.

    The charm and danger of utilitarianism and liberalism is that they tend toward a utopian fantasy that prudent policy choices could extirpate the desire for revenge once and for all. Such fantasies are exemplified in Thomas Friedman’s theory of the “Lexus and the olive tree” according to which the thumotic impulses of violent fundamentalists in former European colonies could be quelled by the importation of luxury goods from developed Western countries. The fact that fascist ideologies persist in the midst of developed nations offers ever greater evidence that this theory is wrong, and that thumotic desire is more than utility maximization or lack of understanding of the values of freedom and equality.

    Thumos is not just a disposition to react to insult. It is a part of human life that must be enlisted for the establishment of political order, but which is always overreaching itself. In Plato’s analogy comparing the parts of the psyche to the parts of the state, thumos corresponds to a guardian class that wields the power to inflict violence on behalf of the political community. This power of violence it is at once constitutive of the political sphere and represents the danger of its collapse. To ignore thumos in our political discussions, and to write off the enraged as crazy or misinformed, is a potentially catastrophic act of ignorance.


    http://www.publicseminar.org/2016/09/want-to-understand-right-wing-rage-go-back-to-plato/#.V-5qFeh96Um
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:55 pm

    Kinder Lad wrote:
    Austrija je nešto drugo.
    Друго - на који начин?

    Radagast wrote:
    No Country wrote:Not impressed. "Председнички циклуси" звуче помало натегнуто. Теорија о конзервативцима као чистој реакцији је вероватно тачна, али заправо не објашњава големи ентузијазам ни tea party, ни Трампових фанова. Такође ни не помишља да би дотична опција можда могла и да победи, и шта би то значило за Америку.

    Ево једног читања које више личи на ово моје: http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit. 



    Nije lose, stavise taj deo koji si citirao bih potpisao, ali ne uklapa se sve. Naprimer, nije jasno kakva je veza teze o "resentment of the privileged" i ovoga:

    "Voters under the age of 34, who research suggests are the least racially prejudiced group in the UK, supported staying in the EU by margins similar to those seen among racial minorities. Sixty percent of voters over age 65, who harbor the highest levels of prejudice, supported leaving."
    Мени је доста убедљив тај део о "lost privileges": клинци напросто нису имали времена да развију the sense of entitlement, у једном ипак колико-толико промењеном друштву.
    Ointagru Unartan

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    Post by Ointagru Unartan Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:13 pm

    No Country wrote:
    Мени је доста убедљив тај део о "lost privileges": клинци напросто нису имали времена да развију the sense of entitlement, у једном ипак колико-толико промењеном друштву.

    Mislis da ce ti klinci postati konzervativniji i ksenofobniji kad budu omatorili?


    _____
    "Ne morate krenuti odavde da biste dosli tamo. Moguce je krenuti odavde i vratiti se ponovo tu, ali preko onoga tamo."
    Aca Seltik, Sabrana razmisljanja o topologiji, tom cetvrti.

    My Moon Che Gavara.
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:19 pm

    Вероватно, неким делом, али уопште нисам на то мислио. Одрастати у Америци 50-тих, 60-тих па донекле и 70-тих је ипак било другачије него одрастати у доба Била Клинтона. Данашњи клинци напросто немају ту предоџбу да им нешто припада, само зато што су бели.


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    Ointagru Unartan

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    Post by Ointagru Unartan Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:23 pm

    No Country wrote:Вероватно, неким делом, али уопште нисам на то мислио. Одрастати у Америци 50-тих, 60-тих па донекле и 70-тих је ипак било другачије него одрастати у доба Била Клинтона. Данашњи клинци напросто немају ту предоџбу да им нешто припада, само зато што су бели.

    Slazem se.


    _____
    "Ne morate krenuti odavde da biste dosli tamo. Moguce je krenuti odavde i vratiti se ponovo tu, ali preko onoga tamo."
    Aca Seltik, Sabrana razmisljanja o topologiji, tom cetvrti.

    My Moon Che Gavara.
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    Post by Guest Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:50 am

    C. Lydon napravio dobru emisliju na temu Tramparinih glasača. govori i Arlie Hochschild.

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