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    Ratovi 90tih na prostoru SFRJ

    No Country

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    Post by No Country Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:00 pm

    KinderLad wrote:
    venexiana stevenson wrote:kao i ine bivse socijalisticke drzave pa se nijedna nije raspala ratom i najgorim genocidom after ww2. nisam primetio teznje ka velikoj ceskoj i sl po evropi.

     Nije Ceska poenta, sta je tu moglo da bude uzrok ratu? Poenta je da je 1 Rusija rekla, ok, 10 miliona Rusa je ostalo izvan Rusije,  sad nema sanse, ali videcemo posle sta tu moze da se uradi. Ali Srbi jok.
    Никада нећемо знати да ли су били поучени нашим лудилом, или су се просто плашили нуклеарки на којима су седели? My money’s on latter.

    Мада треба приметити да Србији није баш била доступна “сачекаћу те када ти затреба гас” варијанта. Нама су одлично продали “сад је распродаја, сад шта уграбиш!” акцију. И осталим учесницима у комадању СФРЈ такође.
    Filipenko

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    Post by Filipenko Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:08 pm

    venexiana stevenson wrote:kao i ine bivse socijalisticke drzave pa se nijedna nije raspala ratom i najgorim genocidom after ww2. nisam primetio teznje ka velikoj ceskoj i sl po evropi.


    Nije ni Jugoslavija. Mislim, nisu se republike otcepile genocidom, a vremenski razmak od 1991. ili 1992. tebi, kako vidim, ne smeta nimalo u donošenju pogrešnih zaključaka, pa samo napred.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:10 pm

    Dobro, prodali smo sami sebi.
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:45 pm

    No Country wrote:
    KinderLad wrote:

    Nije Ceska poenta, sta je tu moglo da bude uzrok ratu? Poenta je da je 1 Rusija rekla, ok, 10 miliona Rusa je ostalo izvan Rusije,  sad nema sanse, ali videcemo posle sta tu moze da se uradi. Ali Srbi jok.
    Никада нећемо знати да ли су били поучени нашим лудилом, или су се просто плашили нуклеарки на којима су седели? My money’s on latter.

    Мада треба приметити да Србији није баш била доступна “сачекаћу те када ти затреба гас” варијанта. Нама су одлично продали “сад је распродаја, сад шта уграбиш!” акцију. И осталим учесницима у комадању СФРЈ такође.

    Ratovi 90tih na prostoru SFRJ - Page 24 51eIgHmKADL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_

    ...

    As we have seen in our presentation of various comparative approaches to
    the nonviolent versus violent mode of Soviet and Yugoslav dissolution, a whole
    set of more or less plausible antecedent factors have been identified in order
    to explain this divergence in outcomes. Having recognized that some of these
    antecedent factors played a role in the outcomes (e.g., the different institutional
    effects of communist nationality policy in the two cases), the thrust of our crit-
    icism was that these explanatory schemes failed to explicate the historically
    rooted motivation of political action and took for granted cultural attitudes
    and collective memories at best as background factors whose explanatory role
    was unspecified. By contrast, this study posits that historically rooted cultural
    attitudes in Russia and Serbia toward the state and collective memories rooted
    in defining historical experiences constitute necessary antecedent conditions
    that, in conjunction with contextual factors, offer an “objectively probable”
    explanation of different modes of Soviet and Yugoslav dissolution.
    For the sake
    of clarity, the necessary antecedent conditions identified on the basis of coun-
    terfactual reasoning (i.e., the ranking, sorting, and rejection of other historical
    factors) can be explicated in the form of a series of affirmative (though in real-
    ity only conditional or “probable”) propositions:

    1. The historical identification of Serbian political and cultural elites (as the
    most significant social carriers of state- and national-sentiment) with the
    Yugoslav state
    and, more generally, their attachment to the idea of the
    state as the embodiment of the national purpose increased the likelihood
    of Yugoslavia’s violent breakup. Conversely, the Russian cultural elites’
    historically rooted view of the imperial Russian state as an “autocracy”
    alien to the true ways of the Russian “nation” or “people” (narod)
    , and
    the subsequent transposition of the image of dual Russia (state versus
    people) onto Stalin’s autocracy, lowered the likelihood of Soviet-Russian
    elites’ relying on coercion, and thus increased the likelihood of peaceful
    dissolution.

    2. Serbia’s history as a nation-state prior to Yugoslav unification, and the
    historical availability of a program of Serbian unification independent of
    Yugoslavism, increased the likelihood that Serbian elites would challenge
    the borders of Croatia and Bosnia
    . On the surface it may appear that this
    proposition contradicts the first one, for how can Serbs be both fervent
    Yugoslavs and strong Serbian particularists? This seeming contradiction
    is resolved if we consider not only the dual statist-nationalist identity
    of dominant nations in multinational polities (e.g., British-English), but
    also the timing and sequencing of different strands of Serbian national-
    ism in the critical period of the late 1980s, when it first took the form
    of a “restorationist” Yugoslav movement whose goal was to recentralize
    the Yugoslav federation, and only subsequently – when that prospect
    faced insurmountable obstacles in the form of Slovenian and Croatian
    resistance – the form of a particularist program of Serbian unification
    in
    defiance of existing republican borders.65 At this second stage, the his-
    torical availability of the idea of a “Great Serbia“ (however contested
    and historically contestable the term) played an important role in the
    ultimate outcome. By contrast, the historical absence of a program of
    Russian national unification independent of empire or the Soviet Union
    meant that such programs as belatedly surfaced (e.g., Solzhenitsyn’s pro-
    posal) did not have historical precedents and thus did not have the same
    potential for mass resonance
    . As a result, many Russians who identified
    with the Soviet Union as a territorial homeland continued to cling to
    the idea of a unified “post-Soviet space” in the weakened form of the
    Commonwealth of Independent States.

    3. The special role of Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia in Yugoslav unifica-
    tion, their shared collective memory of victimization in wartime Croatia,
    and their relative overrepresentation in the Partisan movement, cemented
    the connection between Serbian national identity and the Yugoslav
    state
    (even in its communist form). The embodiment of the legacy of
    state-building and traumatic collective memory in this social carrier of
    postwar Yugoslav unity
    (as a result of their role in the Partisan move-
    ment Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia held prominent positions in the
    JNA and party-state institutions in these two republics) helps explain the
    availability of a critical elite constituency for statist-nationalist mobiliza-
    tion in the 1990s
    . To be sure, the mere presence of a constituency with a
    vested interest in state preservation and potentially opposed to Croatia’s
    and Bosnia’s independence was not sufficient cause for nationalist mobi-
    lization, but it was certainly a necessary antecedent, for in its absence a
    leader like Miloševic would not have been able to make political inroads
    among the Serbs of Croatia and Bosnia in the same way that he actually
    did (the hypothetical versus actual course of events). Conversely, in the
    Soviet-Russian case, the shared Russian-Ukrainian memory of common
    victimization by the Stalinist state in the 1930s and Nazi invader in the
    1940s increased the likelihood that Russians in Ukraine would accept
    and even support Ukraine’s independence from the “imperial center” as
    opposed to unification with a truncated Russia
    (the actual versus hypo-
    thetical course of events). This is because the Soviet state was seen as
    the historical victimizer of both nations
    . Simplifying, we can reduce this
    proposition to a critical difference in collective memory and its social
    carriers in the two cases.

    4. The Yugoslav communists’ endorsement of asymmetrical federalism in
    which Serbia (and only Serbia) was a republic with two autonomous
    provinces and their empowerment through political decentralization
    in the 1970s to such an extent that the territorial integrity of Serbia
    and Yugoslavia appeared to be under threat
    (manifested in the grow-
    ing potential for Albanian separatism in Kosovo) opened the Serbian
    national question and paved the way for a “restorationist” (i.e., procen-
    tralist Yugoslav) Serbian nationalism
    , increasing the likelihood of intense
    national conflicts. Conversely, the creation of a hypercentralized Soviet
    state that partially co-opted elements of ideological Russian national-
    ism while depriving “Russia” (i.e., the RSFSR) of its own institutions
    ,
    exploited its natural resources in order to subsidize the Soviet periphery,
    and ideologically suppressed Russian national culture (e.g., the censor-
    ship of representative literary works and other artistic creations cen-
    tral to the cultural self-identification of Russians as a nation) created
    the institutional foundation for opposition between “Russia” and the
    “Soviet center” in the early 1990s. Thus, Soviet nationality policy unin-
    tentionally increased the likelihood that Russian elites would view the
    peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union as a precondition of Russia’s
    own national regeneration.


    Taken together, these four statements specify the necessary antecedent condi-
    tions of different modes of Yugoslav and Soviet dissolution insofar as they
    can be shown to have exercised a causal impact on the actions of Russian
    and Serbian elites. Though such statements will inevitably appear simplistic
    to a historian who will rightly view these antecedent conditions as compos-
    ite factors that refer to considerably more complex historical realities, such
    a “one-sided accentuation” of historical reality is an essential element in the
    Weberian construction of ideal types predicated on a plausible interpretation
    of the meaning of the collective historical experiences of “whole nations.”
    ...
    No Country

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    Post by No Country Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:08 pm

    Занимљиво. Човек евидентно познаје Србе мало боље него Русе.  Ratovi 90tih na prostoru SFRJ - Page 24 4101625831

    Има ту још једна ствар, и могуће најважнија. Пољаци, Чеси, Мађари, Словенци, на крају и сами Руси - су једва чекали да се курталишу комунистичког јарма и свих пратећих глупости. Руси можда још и мало више, јер су чекали дуже. За разлику, браћи Србима и Хрватима је то било потпуно секундарно, него су навалили да исправљају хиљадугодишње неправде и сањају тисућлећни сан. Или комунизам у нас збиља није био довољно страшан, или смо стварно наопаки и мимо света.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:39 pm

    Bome, po onome istrazivanju koje sam kacio Hrvatima bas i nije bilo toliko sekundarno tj kod njih je procenat koje je hteo da skloni sistem kao takav bio prilicno poveci od YU proseka. 


    Ovo gore je sve super i tacno (i posebno je tu vidljivo da Srbi nisu nikakvi "Mali Rusi", odnosno, kod Srba je nacionalizam potpuno izgradjen (sto nije ni cudo s obzirom na to kad je poceo da se "gradi"). Medjutim to ne negira fakat da smo ispali nevidjeni magarci sto velikim delom i dalje ispadamo. I ne negira fakat da je rezimska motivacija apsolutno pre svega bila ostanak na vlasti. A Srbija nikad do sada nije smogla snage ne da se dosledno obracuna sa nacionalistickim nasledjem njegovog doba, nego cak ni sa autoritarnim unutrasnjim Milosevicevim nasledjem. I zato placa cenu. I Srbija ce, neminovno, trpeti neuspehe sve dok bar to ne uradi.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:08 pm

    Ali u ime kog cilja se nacionalna država obračunava sa svojim nacionalizmom?

    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:12 pm

    Ma nek se obracuna sa autokratijom za pocetak. Fora je u tome sto kad je rezim totalno kompromitujes na jednom nivou, onda on vise ne izgleda sjajno ni na bilo kom drugom 


    A sa nacionalizmom, ako nista drugo, mogla bi da se obracuna zato sto je nekoristan. Ako nista drugo.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:06 pm

    gledao sam ovaj film 

    kakvo jebeno zlo, i kakvo epic nesuocavanje celokupnog drustva sa tim 





    a ognjen ima sad i temu za nove filmove, tj vec razmislja o tome, kako su ovakvi zlocini i genocid postali uzor i herojska dela vredna divljenja danasnjim hriscanskim belim nacistima po celom svetu.
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:36 am

    KinderLad wrote:Ma nek se obracuna sa autokratijom za pocetak. Fora je u tome sto kad je rezim totalno kompromitujes na jednom nivou, onda on vise ne izgleda sjajno ni na bilo kom drugom 


    A sa nacionalizmom, ako nista drugo, mogla bi da se obracuna zato sto je nekoristan. Ako nista drugo.

    U praktičnom smislu to je onda frontalna borba protiv Vučića. On je centar autokratije. Njegovi tabloidi su najveća šovenska trovačnica, plus je njegova premijerka podigla lestvicu negirajući genocid u Srebrenici, i na velika vrata promovisala punu radikalsku retoriku.

    2 u 1 problem.
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:08 am

    pa on sa svojih kzn proziva ustase, tacija, zaeva i svet kao takav. da se vise vrati u bure u picoder!


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:10 am

    Gargantua wrote:
    KinderLad wrote:Ma nek se obracuna sa autokratijom za pocetak. Fora je u tome sto kad je rezim totalno kompromitujes na jednom nivou, onda on vise ne izgleda sjajno ni na bilo kom drugom 


    A sa nacionalizmom, ako nista drugo, mogla bi da se obracuna zato sto je nekoristan. Ako nista drugo.

    U praktičnom smislu to je onda frontalna borba protiv Vučića. On je centar autokratije. Njegovi tabloidi su najveća šovenska trovačnica, plus je njegova premijerka podigla lestvicu negirajući genocid u Srebrenici, i na velika vrata promovisala punu radikalsku retoriku.

    2 u 1 problem.

    Apsolutno, samo ne borba "benzinom na vatru"
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:32 pm

    haha kako truje govnima neki profesor iz bl na aldzaziri, ima vise istina, u ratu se gine, svi su jednako krivi i ostali velikosrpski gnoj

    meanwhile rukovodstvo republike srpske ima vise robije od svih robijasa u luizijana stejt penetenseneriju
    plachkica

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    Post by plachkica Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:33 pm

    evo uživo, tačnije 30 minuta odloženo

    http://balkans.aljazeera.net/uzivo
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:37 pm

    hoce li studenti republike srpske i dalje brojati prve poljupce u radovanu karadzicu, spremati ispite u radovanu karadzicu, gubiti nevinost u radovanu karadzicu, praviti zurke u radovanu karadzicu
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm

    Interesantno je da je paljanski studentski dom baš na danšnji dan prije tri godine nazvan po Radovanu.
    Anonymous
    Guest

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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:45 pm

    da, to se bas poklopilo. ne znam kako ce nakaza dodik iskombinovati obelezavanje tog dana, kada ovom sada zakucaju presudu. zelim mu dug zivot u pelenama i kateterima
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:01 pm

    dozivotna za heroja nacista sirom sveta
    bela maca

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    Post by bela maca Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:04 pm

    trebalo je da ga osude na doživotno razminiranje bosne


    _____
    most of us probably not getting better
    but not getting better together
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:08 pm

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/03/20/how-serbian-war-criminal-became-an-icon-white-nationalism/
    kondo

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    Post by kondo Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:17 pm

    kakva je razlika izmedju 40 godina i dozivotne za nekoga ko ima 70 godina?


    _____
    #FreeFacu

    Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
    ficfiric

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    Post by ficfiric Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:17 pm

    bela maca wrote:trebalo je da ga osude na doživotno razminiranje bosne

    +1

    Pa ako je nevin, bog ce ga sacuvati


    _____


    Uprava napolje!

    Zuper

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    Post by Zuper Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:26 pm

    Kondo wrote:kakva je razlika izmedju 40 godina i dozivotne za nekoga ko ima 70 godina?

    Za Karadzica sustinski nikakva ali je simbolicki vazna za onoga sa NZ.

    Sama presude nije izasla iz ranijih presuda.
    Cak su usvojili Karadzicu neke manje vazne primedbe na prvostepenu presudu.
    Mislim par njih.


    Last edited by Zuper on Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Anonymous
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    Post by Guest Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:26 pm

    odlozeno su prenosili da ne bi govno uradilo nesto kao onaj ustasa
    ficfiric

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    Post by ficfiric Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:56 pm

    Nema potrebe za tim


    _____


    Uprava napolje!

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