EU - what's next?

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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Anduril on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:58 pm

Kinder Lad wrote:Pa Merkel nije vizionar, to nije ništa novo.

Naravno, ali poenta je da vizionari i nisu uvek prekopotrebni jer svako vreme ima drugacije izazove. 

No, ovo sto se dogadja od od 2008. a pogotovo od 2012. je ocigledno prevelik izazov za Merkel a problemi se gomilaju.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:22 pm

Poland scraps proposed media restrictions in wake of street protests

Što reko Bazdulj, Poljska u mom srcu.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Blind Lime Pie on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:34 pm

Ne razumem kako su mogli da protestuju po tako lošem vremenu.

Zna se kad se prave protesti, samo kada je lepo vreme, od poznog proleća do rane jeseni, posle višenedeljne pripreme, a ne ovako zbrda-zdola.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:37 pm



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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:44 pm

Photino Bird wrote:Ne razumem kako su mogli da protestuju po tako lošem vremenu.

Zna se kad se prave protesti, samo kada je lepo vreme, od poznog proleća do rane jeseni, posle višenedeljne pripreme, a ne ovako zbrda-zdola.

aj to, nego što iskorišćavaju ove proteste za političke ciljeve


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:45 pm



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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Blind Lime Pie on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:27 pm



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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:41 am

Germany's insistence on austerity in the euro zone has left Europe more divided than ever and a break-up of the European Union is no longer inconceivable, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel told Der Spiegel magazine.
Gabriel, whose Social Democrats (SPD) are junior partner to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in her ruling grand coalition, said strenuous efforts by countries like France and Italy to reduce their fiscal deficits came with political risks. "I once asked the chancellor, what would be more costly for Germany: for France to be allowed to have half a percentage point more deficit, or for Marine Le Pen to become president?" he said, referring to the leader of the far-right National Front.

"Until today, she still owes me an answer," added Gabriel, whose SPD favours a greater focus on investment while Merkel's conservatives put more emphasis on fiscal discipline as a foundation for economic prosperity.
The SPD is expected to choose Gabriel, their long-standing chairman who is also economy minister, to run against Merkel for chancellor in September's federal election, senior party sources said on Thursday. Asked if he really believed he could win more votes by transferring more German money to other EU countries, Gabriel replied: "I know that this discussion is extremely unpopular."
"But I also know about the state of the EU. It is no longer unthinkable that it breaks apart," he said in the interview, published on Saturday."Should that happen, our children and grandchildren would curse us," he added. "Because Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the European community - economically and politically."


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:30 pm


Is Europe Disintegrating?






Timothy Garton Ash

 January 19, 2017 Issue  
 

 
Had I been cryogenically frozen in January 2005, I would have gone to my provisional rest as a happy European. With the enlargement of the European Union to include many post-Communist democracies, the 1989 “return to Europe” dream of my Central European friends was coming true. EU member states had agreed on a constitutional treaty, loosely referred to as the European constitution. The unprecedented project of European monetary union seemed to be confounding the deep skepticism that I and many others had earlier expressed.1 It was amazing to travel without hindrance from one end of the continent to another, with no border controls inside the expanding zone of states adhering to the Schengen Agreement and with a single currency in your pocket for use throughout the eurozone.
Madrid, Warsaw, Athens, Lisbon, and Dublin felt as if they were bathed in sunlight from windows newly opened in ancient dark palaces. The periphery of Europe was apparently converging with the continent’s historic core around Germany, the Benelux countries, France, and northern Italy. Young Spaniards, Greeks, Poles, and Portuguese spoke optimistically about the new chances offered them by “Europe.” Even notoriously euroskeptical Britain was embracing its European future under Prime Minister Tony Blair. And then there was the avowedly pro-European Orange Revolution in Ukraine. As I watched peaceful protesters in Kiev waving the European flag, with its yellow stars on a blue background, I could inwardly intone the European anthem—Beethoven’s music for the “Ode to Joy.”2
Cryogenically reanimated in January 2017, I would immediately have died again from shock. For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola, and the periphery of Europe is diverging from its core. There is no European constitution, since that was rejected in referendums in France and the Netherlands later in 2005. The glorious freedom of movement for young Poles and other Central and Eastern Europeans has now contributed substantially to a shocking referendum vote by my own country, Britain, to leave the EU altogether. And Brexit brings with it the prospect of being stripped of my European citizenship on the thirtieth anniversary of 1989.
A young liberal hero of 1989, Viktor Orbán, is now a nationalist populist leading Hungary toward authoritarianism and explicitly praising the “illiberal” example of Xi Jinping’s China and Vladimir Putin’s Russia. Border controls have been reimposed between Schengen countries (“temporarily,” of course), in response to the flood of refugees from Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan—areas where our so-called European foreign policy has proved little more than waffle. To cap it all, a brave attempt to complete the unfinished business of the Orange Revolution in Ukraine has been rewarded with Russia’s unilateral armed seizure of Crimea and ongoing violent intervention in eastern Ukraine—actions recalling Europe in 1939 rather than 1989. Ichabod! Ichabod! The glory has departed from our common European home.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/is-europe-disintegrating/


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by ostap bender on Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:45 pm

pa osim sto je bilo ljudi koji su ovo predvidjali vec 2005.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:15 pm

Ceo tekst je pomalo naivan, radije ću da čitam knjige koje prikazuje.

Recimo ovo

If the post-wall era runs from 1989 to 2009, what epoch are we in now? We almost certainly won’t know for a decade or three. On a bad Europe day, and there were too many of those in 2016, one does feel like going into cryogenic hibernation; but this is no time for freezing. No, we who believe in liberty and liberalism must fight back against the advancing armies of Trumpismo. The starting point for fighting well is to understand exactly what consequences of which aspects of the post-wall era’s economic and social liberalism—and of related developments, such as rapid technological change—have alienated so many people that they now vote for populists, who in turn threaten the foundations of political liberalism at home and abroad. Having made an accurate diagnosis, the liberal left and liberal right need to come up with policies, and accessible, emotionally appealing language around those policies, to win these disaffected voters back. On the outcome of this struggle will depend the character and future name of our currently nameless era.

Kakva liberalna desnica, bob s tobom, Timoti. I gde je ima sve je slabija ili je dobrano na putu transformacije u ekstremnu desnicu (vidi pod Fijon). Torijevci su pošli nekim sasvim drugim putem, gde će izaći niko ne zna. U Mađarskoj liberalna desnica ne postoji. U Poljskoj postoji u tragovima. U Srbiji, Hrvatskoj? Nemojmo se zajebavati.

Ostaje jedino Merkel, ali to je premalo da bi se govorilo o nekakvim desnim liberalima koji treba da se ujedine. A videćemo i na šta će to sa njom da izađe.

Na liberalnoj levici, naravno, nije mnogo drugačije. Bleriti služe za sprdnju, Kleg ne postoji, liberalne stranke u HUN su počišćene, ostala je samo alter-levica, u Francuskoj Oland i ekipa su skrajnuti i obrukani. O čemu pričamo?


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:20 pm

Hoću da kažem, ako je i postojao trenutak u kojem je nekakva koalicija mejnstrim liberala, levih i desnih, mogla da transformiše EU, taj je voz prošao. Poslednji takav trenutak je bio sa Olandovim dolaskom na vlast, možda je tada nekakva francuko-nemačka levo-desna sprega mogla nešto da uradi zajedničkim snagama, ali nakon gaženja Sirize, sve je nepovratno otišlo u pizdu lepu materinu. Tog "razumnog" liberalnog mejnstrima prosto više nema i ne vredi više u njega polagati nikakve nade.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:24 pm

Pa Timotije je Blerit. To su oni sto bi hteli ideolosku borbu sa desnicom, e ali da to finansijski ne kosta. Nece moci. Narodu se nesto mora dati. Ako "vi" necete da mu date pare, bacice mu desnica imigrante, muslimane, poljake i sve ostale. Jbg.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:27 pm

Pa pazi predlog jbt, "the liberal left and liberal right need to come up with policies, and accessible, emotionally appealing language around those policies, to win these disaffected voters back".

Policies, policies, policies, we're sick of policies. I naravno, "emotionally appealing language". Ko da čitam genijalnog Podestu i njemu slične.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Daï Djakman Faré on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:29 pm

William Murderface wrote:Tog "razumnog" liberalnog mejnstrima prosto više nema i ne vredi više u njega polagati nikakve nade.
onaj nesretnik gi ferhovstat pokusava da figurira kao tako nesto ali u principu da, nema.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:43 pm

William Murderface wrote:Pa pazi predlog jbt, "the liberal left and liberal right need to come up with policies, and accessible, emotionally appealing language around those policies, to win these disaffected voters back".

Policies, policies, policies, we're sick of policies. I naravno, "emotionally appealing language". Ko da čitam genijalnog Podestu i njemu slične.

Pa ne, policies je u redu, samo kakve policies? Na primer policies kojima se od minusa banaka prave drzavni minusi i policies po kome korporacije nastavljaju da rade apsolutno sta hoce i gde hoce mogu samo da i konacno pokopaju liberalizam (i sve ostalo usput). Ordoliberalizam se za sada ispostavio kao otporniji na popuizam od laissez-faire liberalizma, ali je i on doveo do toga da drzava brani interese "nacionalnog" krupnog kapitala kao svoje sopstvene tako da i to u konacnici vodi u raspad EU. 

Jedini nacin da politicki liberalizam u Evropi opstane je leva ekonomska politika (ukljucujuci i debelu zastitu trzista od jeftine robe). Alternative su ili raspad ili festung europa.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:49 pm

Ma zna se na šta neoliberali misle kad kažu policies - malo ekspertske ekvilibristike i trimovanja postojećeg stanja. Malo veće plate, malo bolje zdravstveno osiguranje, malo manji veći porezi za bogate, itd. Ma bre, ne može više tako, ne trebaju nam policies (we've had enough of experts!), nego politics! To je ono što nedostaje u njegovom predlogu. On ne predlaže nikakvu stvarnu promenu kursa, nego malo kozmetičkih promena i "emotionally appealing language" , drugim rečima PR-ovsko prodavanje muda za bubrege. Znači posle Brexita-a i Hilarinog poraza ti ponovo valjaš tu priču (she had policies!), pa je-bo-te!


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:01 am

William Murderface wrote:Ma zna se na šta neoliberali misle kad kažu policies - malo ekspertske ekvilibristike i trimovanja postojećeg stanja. Malo veće plate, malo bolje zdravstveno osiguranje, malo manji veći porezi za bogate, itd. Ma bre, ne može više tako, ne trebaju nam policies (we've had enough of experts!), nego politics! To je ono što nedostaje u njegovom predlogu. On ne predlaže nikakvu stvarnu promenu kursa, nego malo kozmetičkih promena i "emotionally appealing language" , drugim rečima PR-ovsko prodavanje muda za bubrege. Znači posle Brexita-a i Hilarinog poraza ti ponovo valjaš tu priču (she had policies!), pa je-bo-te!

da, dobro, tacno - politics, jeste. nisu potrebne politike, nego politiKA. medjutim, pesimista sam. ne u smislu raspada EU, nego u smislu njenog solidnog preobrazenja u nesto sto nimalo nece liciti na inicijalno zamisljenu. Alternative für Europa.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:20 am

Ja nisam nužno pesimista po pitanju ishoda, ali sam siguran da do njega neće doći dogovorom mejnstrim elita. Taj voz je prošao.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:31 am

Ne, ok, krajnji krajnji ishod i dalje može biti pozitivan. No, u ovom momentu, 1 evropska platforma je, u realnom svetu politike, daleko izglednije da će se napraviti na desnici nego na levici. Levica je u baš teškoj defanzivi.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:36 am

Da, trenutno stvari svakako idu u tom smeru. Ali šta da ti kažem, verujem u paradigmatske lomove i suštinsku nepredvidivost politike.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Kinder Lad on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:06 am

Oh, javili su se iskusni borci u razbijanju intenacionalnih projekata. Poslušajmo šta nam imaju kasti

http://www.kurir.rs/planeta/slovenija-krece-u-kampanju-ponudili-ideju-o-cepanju-evropske-unije-evo-gde-vide-srbiju-clanak-2624321


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:16 am



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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Gargantua on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:17 am

William Murderface wrote:

Is Europe Disintegrating?








Timothy Garton Ash

 January 19, 2017 Issue  
 

 
Had I been cryogenically frozen in January 2005, I would have gone to my provisional rest as a happy European. With the enlargement of the European Union to include many post-Communist democracies, the 1989 “return to Europe” dream of my Central European friends was coming true. EU member states had agreed on a constitutional treaty, loosely referred to as the European constitution. The unprecedented project of European monetary union seemed to be confounding the deep skepticism that I and many others had earlier expressed.1 It was amazing to travel without hindrance from one end of the continent to another, with no border controls inside the expanding zone of states adhering to the Schengen Agreement and with a single currency in your pocket for use throughout the eurozone.
Madrid, Warsaw, Athens, Lisbon, and Dublin felt as if they were bathed in sunlight from windows newly opened in ancient dark palaces. The periphery of Europe was apparently converging with the continent’s historic core around Germany, the Benelux countries, France, and northern Italy. Young Spaniards, Greeks, Poles, and Portuguese spoke optimistically about the new chances offered them by “Europe.” Even notoriously euroskeptical Britain was embracing its European future under Prime Minister Tony Blair. And then there was the avowedly pro-European Orange Revolution in Ukraine. As I watched peaceful protesters in Kiev waving the European flag, with its yellow stars on a blue background, I could inwardly intone the European anthem—Beethoven’s music for the “Ode to Joy.”2
Cryogenically reanimated in January 2017, I would immediately have died again from shock. For now there is crisis and disintegration wherever I look: the eurozone is chronically dysfunctional, sunlit Athens is plunged into misery, young Spaniards with doctorates are reduced to serving as waiters in London or Berlin, the children of Portuguese friends seek work in Brazil and Angola, and the periphery of Europe is diverging from its core. There is no European constitution, since that was rejected in referendums in France and the Netherlands later in 2005. The glorious freedom of movement for young Poles and other Central and Eastern Europeans has now contributed substantially to a shocking referendum vote by my own country, Britain, to leave the EU altogether. And Brexit brings with it the prospect of being stripped of my European citizenship on the thirtieth anniversary of 1989.
A young liberal hero of 1989, Viktor Orbán, is now a nationalist populist leading Hungary toward authoritarianism and explicitly praising the “illiberal” example of Xi Jinping’s China and Vladimir Putin’s Russia. Border controls have been reimposed between Schengen countries (“temporarily,” of course), in response to the flood of refugees from Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan—areas where our so-called European foreign policy has proved little more than waffle. To cap it all, a brave attempt to complete the unfinished business of the Orange Revolution in Ukraine has been rewarded with Russia’s unilateral armed seizure of Crimea and ongoing violent intervention in eastern Ukraine—actions recalling Europe in 1939 rather than 1989. Ichabod! Ichabod! The glory has departed from our common European home.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/is-europe-disintegrating/


e, pročitao ovo juče, a pre 10ak dana sam odštampao terovu knjigu (skinuo pdf) i krenuo (vrlo sporo, ne stižem) da je čitam.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Gargantua on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:58 pm




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