Hirošima

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Re: Hirošima

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:02 pm

beatakeshi wrote: Sad da pređete na krilca!

Logicno, od Hiroshime do rostilja.



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Re: Hirošima

Post by beatakeshi on Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:09 pm

O, ludače!
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Mr.Pink on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:26 pm



"LeMay Bombing pamflet", which was delivered to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and other 33 cities on 1 August 1945.

“Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately.”


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СВЕ СУДИЈЕ ХАШКОГА СУДА 
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Mr.Pink on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:34 pm

& za kraj 1 pop ikona koju je ovaj događaj izrodio: 




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СВЕ СУДИЈЕ ХАШКОГА СУДА 
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Re: Hirošima

Post by beatakeshi on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:42 pm

In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed...

We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked


Ovo kao da je pisao.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Mr.Pink on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:49 pm

pre godzilla lično.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:46 am

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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:57 am

Ike 
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:02 am

šta te je toliko dojmilo?


mislim ovo je sve užasno
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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:04 am

Pa jbt, the "plan". Branio bi Nemacku, Austriju, pominje se i Jugoslavija, tako sto bi sprzio sve okolo sa stotinama nuklearki. Fala lepo na takvoj odbrani
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:15 am

a zanimljivije je poređenje kima i hruščova/kube


oko onih planova u ajkovo vreme postoje već detalji. npr spržili bi istočni berlin sa okolinom uz planirani udar na 91 pojedinačnu metu, svaku sa (bar po) jednom a-bombom.


https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/

The SAC [Strategic Air Command] Atomic Weapons Requirements Study for 1959, produced in June 1956 and published today for the first time by the National Security Archive www.nsarchive.org, provides the most comprehensive and detailed list of nuclear targets and target systems that has ever been declassified. As far as can be told, no comparable document has ever been declassified for any period of Cold War history.

The SAC study includes chilling details. According to its authors,  their target priorities and nuclear bombing tactics would expose nearby civilians and “friendly forces and people” to high levels of deadly radioactive fallout.  Moreover, the authors developed a plan for the “systematic destruction” of Soviet bloc urban-industrial targets that specifically and explicitly targeted “population” in all cities, including Beijing, Moscow, Leningrad, East Berlin, and Warsaw.  Purposefully targeting civilian populations as such directly conflicted with the international norms of the day, which prohibited attacks on people per se (as opposed to military installations with civilians nearby).

The National Security Archive, based at The George Washington University, obtained the study, totaling more than 800 pages, through the Mandatory Declassification Review (MDR) process (see sidebar).

The SAC document includes lists of more than 1100 airfields in the Soviet bloc, with a priority number assigned to each base.  With the Soviet bomber force as the highest priority for nuclear targeting (this was before the age of ICBMs), SAC assigned priority one and two to Bykhov and Orsha airfields, both located in Belorussia. At both bases, the Soviet Air Force deployed medium-range Badger (TU-16) bombers, which would have posed a threat to NATO allies and U.S. forces in Western Europe.  

A second list was of urban-industrial areas identified for “systematic destruction.”  SAC listed over 1200 cities in the Soviet bloc, from East Germany to China, also with priorities established.  Moscow and Leningrad were priority one and two respectively.  Moscow included 179 Designated Ground Zeros (DGZs) while Leningrad had 145, including “population” targets.  In both cities, SAC identified air power installations, such as Soviet Air Force command centers, which it would have devastated with thermonuclear weapons early in the war.

According to the study, SAC would have targeted Air Power targets with bombs ranging from 1.7 to 9 megatons.  Exploding them at ground level, as planned, would have produced significant fallout hazards to nearby civilians.  SAC also wanted a 60 megaton weapon which it believed necessary for deterrence, but also because it would produce “significant results” in the event of a Soviet surprise attack. One megaton would be 70 times the explosive yield of the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.
...

SAC laid out the numbers and types of nuclear weapons  required to destroy each DGZ.  The nuclear weapons information is completely excised from the report making it impossible to know how many weapons SAC believed were necessary to destroy the various targets.   In any event, SAC could anticipate a very large stockpile of nuclear weapons by 1959 to target priority objectives.  This was a period when the nuclear weapons stockpile was reaching large numbers, from over 2400 in calendar 1955 to over 12,000 in calendar 1959 and reaching 22,229 in 1961.

...

Moscow, the number one urban target, had around 180 installations slated for destruction; some were in the air power category, but many involved a variety of industrial activities, including factories producing machine tools, cutting tools, oil extraction equipment, and a most vital medicine: penicillin.  Other targets involved significant infrastructural functions: locks and dams, electric power grids, railroad yards, and repair plants for railroad equipment. SAC might not have targeted each installation with a bomb but may have used the concept of “target islands” whereby adjacent installations were targeted at a central aiming point.  SAC may have assigned more than one weapon to large industrial complexes, however, because they were regarded as several installations.

What is particularly striking in the SAC study is the role of population targeting.  Moscow and its suburbs, like the Leningrad area, included distinct “population” targets (category 275), not further specified.  So did all the other cities recorded in the two sets of target lists. In other words, people as such, not specific industrial activities, were to be destroyed.   What the specific locations of these population targets were cannot now be determined. The SAC study includes the Bombing Encyclopedia numbers for those targets, but the BE itself remains classified (although under appeal).

...

Eastern European Targets

The SAC Atomic Weapons Requirements Study for 1959 stipulated that with exceptions SAC would use lower-yield atomic bombs against targets in Eastern Europe.  Apparently this was for “political” and “psychological” reasons, to differentiate those countries from the Soviet Union through somewhat less destructive bombing. The exception was air power targets: because of the primacy of that category, such targets in Eastern Europe were scheduled to be destroyed by high-yield thermonuclear weapons.  For example, according to the SAC target list, Brieg and Modlin airfields, located near Warsaw, were 31st and 80th in priority respectively.  Tokol airport near Budapest was 125th in priority, therefore a likely target.  Thus, urban populations in Eastern Europe would be exposed to the fallout and other effects of thermonuclear weapons, eroding much of the distinction between targets in that region and targets in the Soviet Union itself.

East Germany was the site of major Soviet airbases and East Berlin itself was a target for “systematic destruction.”  A sampling of the SAC airfields list finds more than a few Soviet-operated installations among the top 200, with some not very far from Berlin. Among them were Briesen (number 140), Gross Dolln (Templin) (number 70), Oranienberg (number 95), Welzow (number 96), Werneuchen (Verneuchen) (number 82).  For example, Oranienberg, which was then a base for Il-28 (Beagle) bombers, is only 22 miles (34 kilometers) north of Berlin. Gross Dolln (Templin), originally a base for Il-28 bombers and later for Soviet fighter aircraft, is 55 miles (66 kilometers) north of Berlin. Werneuchen (number 82), a base for interceptors and fighter/bombers, is about 22 miles (33 kilometers) northeast.  Presumably those bases would have been targeted with thermonuclear weapons which could have subjected the Berlin area to tremendous danger, including radiation hazards.

East Berlin had a priority ranking of 61 in the list of urban-industrial slated for “systematic destruction.”  The SAC study identified 91 DGZs in East Berlin and its suburbs: a wide range of industries and infrastructural activities including electric power, railroad yards, liquid fuel storage, machine tools, and radio and television stations.  In addition, East Berlin and its suburbs included “population” targets, as did Warsaw (target priority 62.) The atomic bombing of East Berlin and its suburbs would very likely have produced fire storms, among other effects, with disastrous implications for West Berlin.   Whether SAC conducted studies on the vulnerability of West Berlin to the effects of nuclear attacks on East Berlin or in other East German targets is unknown.

...
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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:19 am

a zanimljivije je poređenje kima i hruščova/kube

Da, ok, to mislim da nije bas isto. Misli, jedno je SSSR, drugo Sev.Koreja. Sev. Koreja bi mozda eventualno, slucajno, dobacila 1-2 do US i onda bi bili gotovi. Rat sa SSSR je pak nesto drugo.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:31 am

Ono sto je najgore u celoj prici je mogucnost slucajnog rata, za koji se mogucnost drasticno povecava u uslovima krajnjeg nepoverenja izmedju rusije i amerike. to je ono sto stvarno mrzne krv. Recimo neke borbe su u toku u Ukrajini i jedna strana, kao ovo sto kaze za 1995, pomisli da je poceo all out nuclear attack. To je - kraj. Bar za celu severnu hemisferu, to je 100%
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:09 pm

KinderLad wrote:
a zanimljivije je poređenje kima i hruščova/kube

Da, ok, to mislim da nije bas isto. Misli, jedno je SSSR, drugo Sev.Koreja. Sev. Koreja bi mozda eventualno, slucajno, dobacila 1-2 do US i onda bi bili gotovi. Rat sa SSSR je pak nesto drugo.


 elzberg je uporedio hruščovljev gambit na kubi sa kimovim guranjem da osvoji proizvodnju itnerkonti rakete.

zajedničko je to što su u datim trenucima i sssr i sk bili u strateški podređenom položaju prema sad i nisu imali mogućnost kredibilne odmazde (ili kredibilnog prvog napada). postavljanjem raketa na kubu sssr je - bar za kratko - pokazao želju da izbalansira odnos tako što je zapretio samom američkom kopnu; kim radi to isto, kroz razvoj ikbr u okolnostima sankcija i izopštenosti.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:16 pm

^^

deveselu, baza u rumuniji u kojoj su stacionirani elementi američkog "raketnog štita", bi u bilo kojoj varijanti nuklearnog rata dobila bar nekoliko bojevih glava kao "nagradu". to mesto je 100 i nešto kilometara udaljeno od negotina, a nije nepoznato da košava duva od te strane ka ovamo.

fwiw

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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:21 pm

Gargantua wrote:^^

deveselu, baza u rumuniji u kojoj su stacionirani elementi američkog "raketnog štita", bi u bilo kojoj varijanti nuklearnog rata dobio bar nekoliko bojevih glava kao "nagradu". to mesto je 100 i nešto kilometara udaljeno od negotina.

fwiw

Ma da. Mislim, ok, bolje je biti ne gadjan, cisto nasledja radi. Kad ljudi, onih 2-3 miliona ili vec koliko (mozda i mnogo vise, al ne vise od 100m cenim) krenuli da ponovo osvajaju svet prosto je lepo znati da ono sto si gradio bi postalo u donekle neostecenom stanju deo nasledja novog sveta, to je, ono, nekakva minimalna uteha.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:23 pm

to je kad spadnemo na nivo razmišljanja o pukom produžetku vrste.

elzberg reče da bi novi zeland bio ok mesto za život, verovatno i delovi južne amerike i možda afrike.
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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:27 pm

Ma brrrr. Da, sve juzno od monsunskih krajeva bi bio potencijalni habitat. To je vrlo malo kopna, ali dovoljno za produzetak vrste.

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Re: Hirošima

Post by Zuper on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 pm

To je razlog postojanja tzv. Hladnog rata, znali su to Rusi i nisu imali cime da odgvore sve do '70 i '80-ih, kada su prestigli Amere u brojku nuklearki, zato su ranije morali "hladno" da idu...zato je Staljin ludeo na likove poput Broza koji su vukli neke svoje poteze oko podeljenih interesnih zona nakon Drugog svetskog rata, sto su Ameri mogli da protumace lose i napadnu SSSR...
Zato je tesko zamisliti da ce se ponoviti Hladni rat, nazalost to u Vasingtonu nisu bas svesni.


Last edited by Zuper on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:30 pm

hladni rat je sintagma iz 40ih, nema veze sa mogućnošću nuklearnog udara/odgovora.

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Re: Hirošima

Post by Zuper on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:34 pm

Naravno da ima, SAD su imale isprobanu atomku na terenu sto niko drugi nije imao...zli jezici bi rekli da je Hirosima bila pokazna vezba za Ruse...
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:48 pm

KinderLad wrote:
Ma da. Mislim, ok, bolje je biti ne gadjan, cisto nasledja radi. Kad ljudi, onih 2-3 miliona ili vec koliko (mozda i mnogo vise, al ne vise od 100m cenim) krenuli da ponovo osvajaju svet prosto je lepo znati da ono sto si gradio bi postalo u donekle neostecenom stanju deo nasledja novog sveta, to je, ono, nekakva minimalna uteha.

Mislim da oko trecine covecanstva zivi na bezbednoj udaljenosti od najblizih potencijalnih meta nuklearki, mislim na Podsaharsku Afriku (skoro milijardu stanovnika), Juznu Ameriku (pola milijarde) i veci deo Jugoistocne Azije (preko pola milijarde).


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Aca Seltik, Sabrana razmisljanja o topologiji, tom cetvrti.

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Re: Hirošima

Post by KinderLad on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Ointagru Unartan wrote:
KinderLad wrote:
Ma da. Mislim, ok, bolje je biti ne gadjan, cisto nasledja radi. Kad ljudi, onih 2-3 miliona ili vec koliko (mozda i mnogo vise, al ne vise od 100m cenim) krenuli da ponovo osvajaju svet prosto je lepo znati da ono sto si gradio bi postalo u donekle neostecenom stanju deo nasledja novog sveta, to je, ono, nekakva minimalna uteha.

Mislim da oko trecine covecanstva zivi na bezbednoj udaljenosti od najblizih potencijalnih meta nuklearki, mislim na Podsaharsku Afriku (skoro milijardu stanovnika), Juznu Ameriku (pola milijarde) i veci deo Jugoistocne Azije (preko pola milijarde).

To je samo sto se tice neposrednih posledica. Sta da jedes kad ne mozes da gajis hranu godinama. Naravno, ljudi bi bezali (sa sve naoruzanjem, vec sta ko ima) al tek tu bi nastala klanica.

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Re: Hirošima

Post by Zuper on Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:43 pm

Kad smo vrec kod atomki/nuklearki imam par pitanja za istoricare ovde:

-Da li je pad Rankovica povezan sa njegovom zeljom, ne samo to, da SFRJ samostalno nastavi razvoj atomke dok je Tito tu ideju odbacio pocetkom '60-ih zbog Amera koji su mu napravili igracku nesvrstanih?

Jugoslovenski nuklearni program prekinut je 1966. godine, političkim padom Aleksandra Rankovića, koji je bio predsednik Savezne komisije za nuklearna pitanja.

-Da li je Stevan Dedijer otpuzio Pavla Savica da je zbog njegove nesposobnosti pukao projekat razvoja atomke u SFRJ?

-Da li je Indija ohladila Broza, iako je skoro molio, za deljenje tehnologije nakon njihove uspesne probe atomke pocetkom '70-ih, kada se Broz debelo razocarao u nesvrstanost?
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Re: Hirošima

Post by Gargantua on Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:00 pm

jugoslovenski "nuklearni program" naravno nikad nije prekinut jer su instituti ruđer bošković, boris kidrič (vinča) i jožef štefan i n.e. krško funkcionisali do kraja države, dakle sva nuklearna tematika (reaktori, razvoj, medicina, neširenje, skladištenje goriva itd) je ostala da se njome država bavi.

što se tiče naoružanja država nikada nije imala ni polu-ozbiljan izlet u te vode; strategije i doktrine odbrane nikada nisu ostavljale mesta tome, para naravno nije bilo, tehničke ekspertize takođe, pogotovo u 50im i 60im, itd itd.

usputne remarke, upiti i komentari su deo diplomatskog folklora i potonjih feljtona, ništa više.

Re: Hirošima

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