novi ateizam

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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:54 pm

The Chapel Hill Murders Should Be a Wake-Up Call for Atheists
By Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig @ebruenig
On Tuesday evening, Craig Stephen Hicks murdered three young Muslims in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. The victims were a family: 23-year-old Deah Shaddy Barakat, his 21-year-old wife Yusor Mohammad, and her 19-year-old sister Razan Mohammad. Hicks has since turned himself in and has been charged with three counts of first degree murder. His motivation for the attack remains unclear.
But as details have begun to emerge about Hicks’s life prior to the murders, his antipathy toward religion has become increasingly clear. On his Facebook page, Hicks, 46, declared himself a supporter of “Atheists for Equality,” expressed his admiration for Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion and Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason, and condemned "radical" Christianity and Islam alike for their alleged ideological similarities.
Comparisons like those are easy to make, if you pick the right axis. For instance, America’s atheists might have more in common with American Muslims than Hicks seemed to believe. A 2014 Pew survey on American religious groups’ feelings about other religious cohorts found that Americans reserve their coldest feelings for atheists and Muslims, with atheists scoring an average of 41 degrees and Muslims an average of 40 on Pew’s feelings thermometer. A 2012 Gallup poll, meanwhile, found that Americans would prefer almost anyone for president to an atheist or a Muslim. When it came to views on other religions, the Pew survey showed that American atheists feel warmest toward religions with the least political presence in the United States, like Hinduism and Buddhism, and feel coldest toward Evangelical Christianity, Mormonism, and Islam— three faiths that regularly make the nightly news. 

There is a distinction to be made between atheism in its pure sense, which describes anyone who does not believe in a god or gods, and New Atheism, the contemporary phenomenon of aggressive disbelief coupled with a persistent persecution narrative. Led by luminaries such as the late Christopher Hitchens and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, New Atheism takes as its core creed a species of Enlightenment liberalism that exalts reason and free inquiry, without bothering to define reason or to explain what is worthy of inquiry, and why. For a school of thought that presents itself as intellectually robust, it is philosophically bankrupt and evidently blind to its similarities to the religions it derides. Consider Richard Dawkins’s response to the Chapel Hill murders: 
Dawkins takes the obviousness of his moral frame for granted; he doesn't feel the need to offer an earnest denouncement of these murders because he does not honestly believe any person could view them as an outgrowth of a system decent people like him are a part of. But this is a persistent problem with the New Atheist movement: Because it is more critical of religion than introspective about its own moral commitments, it assumes there is broad agreement about what constitutes decency, common sense, and reason. Yet in doing so, New Atheism tends to simply baptize the opinions of young, educated white men as the obviously rational approach to complicated socio-political problems. Thus prejudice in its own ranks goes unnoticed.
In 2013, Pew found that American atheists are overwhelmingly young and male, with 38 percent between the ages of 18 and 29, and 67 percent male. Pew also found that atheists in America tend to be college educated at higher rates than the rest of the population, with some 43 percent of atheists holding a college degree, compared to 29 percent of the general population. Polling data gathered by the Atheist Census depicts an even more pronounced split when it comes to age and education, and shares conclusions with Pew on the gender makeup of American atheism, with roughly two-thirds of atheists identifying as male. 

With numbers like these, it’s no surprise that the id of New Atheism tends toward ordaining modes of thought and expression that privilege educated white men. For Richard Dawkins, the fact that Islam is inherently violent is as obvious as the fact that everyone should believe as much. More telling yet are his other prejudices, expressed with equal certitude and impatience: that western feminists have no legitimate problems compared to women in Muslim majority countries; that good pornography would set theocracies aright, had we the magnanimity to bestow it upon them. Dawkins is joined in his convictions about Islam by other New Atheists like Sam Harris and Bill Maher. In each case, the assumed obviousness of Islam’s putative wrong-headedness is accompanied by a thoroughgoing persecution narrative, in which those few brave atheists willing to offend Muslims view themselves as crusaders for common sense.
And perhaps this is another parallel with the religious attitudes New Atheism takes as its target: Like any number of global faiths, New Atheism presumes its framework and considers its truth-claims to be either self-evident or demonstrable by whatever means it already assumes legitimate. Its id is a product of the cultural and political landscape in which the majority of its congregants find themselves, which is again true of the religions it nonetheless essentializes to particular texts, creeds, and dogmas. And, like any other religion, its adherents can take its reasoning too far, and cross the line into violence. New Atheists like Dawkins will point out that nothing in New Atheism necessitates violence, and that many principles of the movement directly oppose it; they should be used to this kind of statement by now, as it’s precisely the argument they encounter and dismiss time and time again when it issues from religious faiths.
Perhaps this will be a moment of reflection for the New Atheist movement and its adherents. If nothing else, the takeaway should be that no form of reasoning, however obvious to a particular cohort, has a monopoly on righteousness. And no ideology, supernatural or not, has a monopoly on evil.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:05 pm

Yet in doing so, New Atheism tends to simply baptize the opinions of young, educated white men as the obviously rational approach to complicated socio-political problems. 



Ovde sam stao... 
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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:19 pm

Zašto?


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:38 am

Zanimljivo je da Galupova anketa pokazuje da ateisti u stvari manje mrze muslimane u poredjenju sa pripadnicima drugih religija. Ako "novi ateizam", kako tvrdi autor teksta, odslikava vrednosti i verovanja vecine ateista, onda se namece zakljucak da je on zapravo tolerantiji od svih drugih religija, bar sto se tice odnosa prema muslimanima.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by паће on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:26 am

Текст је љига вишег нивоа, свака част. Прво измишља нови атеизам, који је као нападан и штогод ратоборан - а у ствари је то онај исти атеизам као и пре, само што је престао да ћути и претвара се да не постоји. Атеисти су успут приметили да су политички најмање заступљени - у било које доба међу изабраним фацама се нађе у вр главе двојица од њих, дакле једва 1% а њих има, зависно од тога ко броји, 15-20%.

Све то што им се овде замера, тај наводни мањак интроспекције итд, је типично десничарски метод: нема везе да ли је тачно него да ли звучи довољно сумњиво и да ли ставља мету у одбрамбени положај. А одбрану онда нећемо објављивати. У ствари не видим разлику између овога и комуњарског међусобног етикетирања.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Santino on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:11 pm

+1


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Ne zamerite, ali kritika vam je prvoloptaška i plitka, a niste ne pokušali da razumete osnovnu tezu teksta - da je novi ateizam ideologija koja ima neke društvene i materijalne preduslove koje nije reflektovala.

Zbog toga - ona reprodukuje stavove i interese prvenstveno jednog društvenog sloja, a čini joj se da govori glasom univerzalnog razuma.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Santino on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:54 pm

kako ne-verovanje u bogove moze biti ideologija? sta znaci "novi" ateizam? koji sam ja ateista, staaari ili novi?


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:57 pm

Ovako.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by bruno sulak on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:00 pm

novi ateizam je politicki pokret a ateizam je individualni pogled na svet koji se dosta razlikuje od slucaja do slucaja.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:02 pm

Upravo. Mislim, ateisti su mixed bunch (kao i vernici kad mo kod toga), ali New Atheism jeste između ostalog i (anti)politički pokret.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Santino on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:03 pm

ok, to je drugi par cipela. molim samo da se zna o cemu pricamo.

nije sramota biti radikalni ateista i bogoborac, samo to da naglasim.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:12 pm

William Murderface wrote:Ne zamerite, ali kritika vam je prvoloptaška i plitka, a niste ne pokušali da razumete osnovnu tezu teksta - da je novi ateizam ideologija koja ima neke društvene i materijalne preduslove koje nije reflektovala.

Zbog toga - ona reprodukuje stavove i interese prvenstveno jednog društvenog sloja, a čini joj se da govori glasom univerzalnog razuma.

To je samo prvi deo teze. Drugi deo, onaj zbog koga se tekst nalazi na ovom topiku, je da je novi ateizam posebno agresivan prema Islamu, sto je autor teksta sam brilijantno opovrgao, navodeci rezultate ankete po kojima su ateisti najmanje netolerantni prema muslimanima, koje recimo manje mrze od protestanata. E sad, ima dve mogucnosti: ili je netacno da Dawkins i Sam Harris reprodukuju stavove citavog drustvenog sloja u kome se uglavnom nalaze ateisti, ili je netacno da je novi ateizam gori od drugih religija glede stavova prema Islamu.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:19 pm

Ti stavovi nisu nužno islamofobni, niti su ateisti nužno islamofobni, kao što one statistike jasno i pokazuju (a valjda je svakome jasno i iz ličnog iskustva), daleko do toga. Problem nastaje kada se jedna vrsta rezonovanja o religiji i ostalom dogmatizuje.  Autorka inače već na početku jasno razliku ateizam kao takav od novog ateizma.

There is a distinction to be made between atheism in its pure sense, which describes anyone who does not believe in a god or gods, and New Atheism, the contemporary phenomenon of aggressive disbelief coupled with a persistent persecution narrative. Led by luminaries such as the late Christopher Hitchens and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, New Atheism takes as its core creed a species of Enlightenment liberalism that exalts reason and free inquiry, without bothering to define reason or to explain what is worthy of inquiry, and why. For a school of thought that presents itself as intellectually robust, it is philosophically bankrupt and evidently blind to its similarities to the religions it derides.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:26 pm

William Murderface wrote:Ti stavovi nisu nužno islamofobni, niti su ateisti nužno islamofobni, kao što one statistike jasno i pokazuju (a valjda je svakome jasno i iz ličnog iskustva), daleko do toga. Problem nastaje kada se jedna vrsta rezonovanja o religiji i ostalom dogmatizuje.  Autorka inače već na početku jasno razliku ateizam kao takav od novog ateizma.

There is a distinction to be made between atheism in its pure sense, which describes anyone who does not believe in a god or gods, and New Atheism, the contemporary phenomenon of aggressive disbelief coupled with a persistent persecution narrative. Led by luminaries such as the late Christopher Hitchens and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, New Atheism takes as its core creed a species of Enlightenment liberalism that exalts reason and free inquiry, without bothering to define reason or to explain what is worthy of inquiry, and why. For a school of thought that presents itself as intellectually robust, it is philosophically bankrupt and evidently blind to its similarities to the religions it derides.

Jel ta primedba znaci da je novi ateizam hajde da kazemo ekstremni pokret koji u stvari ne reflektuje stavove vecine ateista, pa samim tim ni stavove drustvenog sloja madih, belih i obrazovanih?

Jos jedanput: : ili je netacno da Dawkins i Sam Harris reprodukuju stavove citavog drustvenog sloja u kome se uglavnom nalaze ateisti, ili je netacno da je novi ateizam gori od drugih religija glede stavova prema Islamu.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:29 pm

On reprodukuje neke pretpostavke koje se u tom sloju neretko uzimaju kao neproblematične. Dogmatizacija ovih stavova vodi i njihovoj ektremizaciji.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Santino on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:33 pm

the contemporary phenomenon of aggressive disbelief coupled with a persistent persecution narrative


molim? sta je ovde contemporary


ne sme da se kaze istina, da su ateisti proganjani kroz citavu istoriju, i da se to nastavlja do danas u manje civilizovanim zemljama? 


aggressive disbelief - svasta. kao da je titranje jaja drustveno prihvacenim sektama koje pospesuju nerazumevanje, bigotizam, sovinizam, konzervativnost, patrijarhalnost i homofobiju nesto dobro.


lepo je napisao pace, isti onaj ateizam od pre, samo sada vise ne cuti i ne pretvara se da ne postoji.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:34 pm

Okej, mrzi te da misliš pa to ti je.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by William Murderface on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:38 pm

Inače, autorka uopšte ne spori većinske predrasude prema ateistima, i u tom smislu ih upoređuje upravo sa muslimanima.

. For instance, America’s atheists might have more in common with American Muslims than Hicks seemed to believe. A 2014 Pew survey on American religious groups’ feelings about other religious cohorts found that Americans reserve their coldest feelings for atheists and Muslims, with atheists scoring an average of 41 degrees and Muslims an average of 40 on Pew’s feelings thermometer. A 2012 Gallup poll, meanwhile, found that Americans would prefer almost anyone for president to an atheist or a Muslim.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Gargamel on Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:25 am

Santino wrote:kako ne-verovanje u bogove moze biti ideologija? sta znaci "novi" ateizam? koji sam ja ateista, staaari ili novi?
ateizam: Ja ne verujem.

"novi" ateizam: Ti ne verujes!
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Re: novi ateizam

Post by паће on Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:46 am

Стари теизам: ти мораш да верујеш, иначе.

Нови теизам: ти можда мислиш да не верујеш, али у ствари и то твоје је религија.

Сретао сам ове потоње на мрежи пре више година, упорни напорни и отпорни.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:39 pm

Santino wrote:
- suceljavanje svetih spisa i dogmi sa logikom i naucnim saznanjima (ali pre svega s logikom).

Sto se nauke tice, sada znamo da je sve ono sto se tradicionalno zove "duhom", pamcenje, sposobnost rasudjivanja, preferencije itd proizvod mozga, sto znaci da smrt mozga predstavlja i smrt licnosti. Ali da bi se to ukopcalo potreban je minimum obrazovanja i umnog napora: mnogo je lakse verovati da se posle smrti ide u dzenet.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:20 pm

паће wrote:Стари теизам: ти мораш да верујеш, иначе...

... inace ce da radi satara, ateisticki ekstremisto!


US-Bangladesh blogger Avijit Roy hacked to death

A knife-wielding mob has hacked to death a US-Bangladeshi blogger whose writing on religion had brought threats from Islamist hardliners.

Avijit Roy, an atheist who advocated secularism, was attacked in Dhaka as he walked back from a book fair with his wife, who was hurt in the attack.

No-one has been arrested but police say they are investigating a local Islamist group that praised the killing.

Hundreds of students gathered in Dhaka to mourn the blogger's death.

Mr Roy's family say he had received threats after publishing articles promoting secular views, science and social issues on his Bengali-language blog, Mukto-mona, or Free Mind.

He defended atheism in a recent Facebook post, calling it "a rational concept to oppose any unscientific and irrational belief".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31656222


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by паће on Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:06 pm

"Коме закон у топузу лежи"... хм, не каже ништа за сатару и друга сечива.


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Re: novi ateizam

Post by bruno sulak on Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:20 pm

hm... kako ovo nisam isprebacivao na drugi topik? mislim da je jasno da ovde raspravljamo ne o ateizmu vec o specificnom politickom obliku istog koji je do sada podrzao svaku americku intervenciju i koji felericni narativ o sukobu totalitarizma i slobode prenosi u polje 'sudara civilizacija'. to su ljudi s imenom i prezimenom i knjigama iza sebe od kojih neki (ludi harris) zagovaraju preventivne nuklearne udare zato sto je protivnik 'iracionalan'.

mislim pisite gde se osecate ugodno ali mislim da ce se izbeci dosta nesporazuma ukoliko se drzimo teme.

Re: novi ateizam

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