Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

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Djamolidine Abdoujaparov

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Djamolidine Abdoujaparov on 18.03.16 17:40

Moral Psychology: An Exchange Jonathan Haidt and Steven Pinker, reply by Tamsin Shaw
William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 9:39

Is the world really better than ever?



The New Optimists are certainly right on the nostalgia front: nobody in their right mind should wish to have lived in a previous century. In a 2015 survey for YouGov, 65% of British people (and 81% of the French) said they thought the world was getting worse – but judged according to numerous sensible metrics, they’re simply wrong. People are indeed rising out of extreme poverty at an extraordinary rate; child mortality really has plummeted; standards of literacy, sanitation and life expectancy have never been higher. The average European or American enjoys luxuries medieval potentates literally couldn’t have imagined. The essential finding of Steven Pinker’s 2011 book The Better Angels of Our Nature, a key reference text for the New Optimists, seems also to have been largely accepted: that we are living in history’s most peaceful era, with violence of all kinds – from deaths in war to schoolyard bullying – in steep decline.

But the New Optimists aren’t primarily interested in persuading us that human life involves a lot less suffering than it did a few hundred years ago. (Even if you’re a card-carrying pessimist, you probably didn’t need convincing of that fact.) Nestled inside that essentially indisputable claim, there are several more controversial implications. For example: that since things have so clearly been improving, we have good reason to assume they will continue to improve. And further – though this is a claim only sometimes made explicit in the work of the New Optimists – that whatever we’ve been doing these past decades, it’s clearly working, and so the political and economic arrangements that have brought us here are the ones we ought to stick with. Optimism, after all, means more than just believing that things aren’t as bad as you imagined: it means having justified confidence that they will be getting even better soon. “Rational optimism holds that the world will pull out of the current crisis,” Ridley wrote after the financial crisis of 2007-8, “because of the way that markets in goods, services and ideas allow human beings to exchange and specialise honestly for the betterment of all … I am a rational optimist: rational, because I have arrived at optimism not through temperament or instinct, but by looking at the evidence.”


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
Indy

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Indy on 28.07.17 11:56

whatever we’ve been doing these past decades, it’s clearly working, and so the political and economic arrangements that have brought us here are the ones we ought to stick with




Spoiler:






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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 12:04



Samo što se bojim da u ovoj priči ćurku ne tove, nego izgladnjuju...


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bruno sulak

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by bruno sulak on 28.07.17 12:15

tako su verovali verovatno i nekli likovi u doba marka aurelija.


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The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
Kinder Lad

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Kinder Lad on 28.07.17 13:17

there's no such thing as humankind


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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 13:19

ZG, vrati Kinderu nalog!


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Kinder Lad

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Kinder Lad on 28.07.17 13:29

 

Pa ne, mislim, ne postoji onako kako se u ovom tekstu gleda. Prva i osnovna osobina ljudi je da su društvena bića, dakle žive u društvu, ili u više njih, ali niko ne živi u "humankindu", to ne postoji kao faktor u ljudskom životu, ne postoji "ljudsko društvo".


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паће

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by паће on 28.07.17 13:32

А, не, не врдај. Рекао си да не постоји таква ствар која је као људски род. Дотле бисмо се и сложили, јер такве ствари нема, и уосталом, овде се не ради о стварима него баш о унеколико мисаоним појмовима.

Одатле до тврдње о непостојању "људског друштва" има поприличан јендек да се прескочи.


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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 13:34

Ne, razumem, hoće Kinder da kaže da to što nešto stvari idu dobro za humakind, ne znači meni ništa ako sam izgubio posao, a moj grad propada jer mi se fabrika preselila u Kinu. Izgradnja "ljudskog društva" je takođe politički projekat, nije datost, a sasvim sigurno nije statistika.


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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Indy

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Indy on 28.07.17 13:35

Mislim da to nije više tačno, barem otkad je twittera, tamo je ceo humankind.


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Kinder Lad on 28.07.17 13:44

William Murderface wrote:Ne, razumem, hoće Kinder da kaže da to što nešto stvari idu dobro za humakind, ne znači meni ništa ako sam izgubio posao, a moj grad propada jer mi se fabrika preselila u Kinu. Izgradnja "ljudskog društva" je takođe politički projekat, nije datost, a sasvim sigurno nije statistika.

Ma da, ali ajd gubitak posla, zamisli da ovo kažeš nekom Sirijcu . Mislim, mene ovo nervira kao i sve što mi miriše na negaciju politike. A politika je nužnu subjektivna, čak i na ličnom nivou. I upravo to, "ljudsko društvo" možda nije nemoguće, ali onda ono zahteva i "ljudsku državu". Ljudi prosto ne umeju drugačije da žive (99,99% njih) i ne postoji to merilo koje će "izaći" iz tog okvira i onda utvrditi neku "objektivnu" istinu. Mislim, objektivnu istinu o - ljudima. Može da utvrdi objektivnu istinu o, ne znam, prirodi, to nije problem.


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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 14:11

Da, ovo je kljucno.

The New Optimists, says David Runciman, think of politics as nothing more than an annoyance, because in their view “the things that drive progress are not political. But the things that drive failure are political.”


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 14:12

I ovo

At its heart, the New Optimism is an ideological argument: broadly speaking, its proponents are advocates for the power of free markets, and they intend their sunny picture of humanity’s recent past and imminent future to vindicate their politics. This is a perfectly legitimate political argument to make – but it’s still a political argument, not a straightforward, neutral reliance on objective facts. The claim that we are living in a golden age, and that our dominant mood of pessimism is unwarranted, is not an antidote to the Age of the Take, but a Take like any other – and it makes just as much sense to adopt the opposite view. “What I dislike,” Runciman says, “is this assumption that if you push back against their argument, what you’re saying is that all these things are not worth valuing … For people to feel deeply uneasy about the world we inhabit now, despite all these indicators pointing up, seems to me reasonable, given the relative instability of the evidence of this progress, and the [unpredictability] that overhangs it. Everything really is pretty fragile.”


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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Kinder Lad

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Kinder Lad on 28.07.17 14:14

Pa jedino ako ratovi nisu politička pojava


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William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 14:16

Ratovi su politicka, ali mir (po njima) nije. Politika pravi ratove, trziste pravi mir. Ma vigovstina.


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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Kinder Lad

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Kinder Lad on 28.07.17 14:23

William Murderface wrote:I ovo

At its heart, the New Optimism is an ideological argument: broadly speaking, its proponents are advocates for the power of free markets, and they intend their sunny picture of humanity’s recent past and imminent future to vindicate their politics. This is a perfectly legitimate political argument to make – but it’s still a political argument, not a straightforward, neutral reliance on objective facts. The claim that we are living in a golden age, and that our dominant mood of pessimism is unwarranted, is not an antidote to the Age of the Take, but a Take like any other – and it makes just as much sense to adopt the opposite view. “What I dislike,” Runciman says, “is this assumption that if you push back against their argument, what you’re saying is that all these things are not worth valuing … For people to feel deeply uneasy about the world we inhabit now, despite all these indicators pointing up, seems to me reasonable, given the relative instability of the evidence of this progress, and the [unpredictability] that overhangs it. Everything really is pretty fragile.”

E pa da, to je to što i ja kažem.


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No Country

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by No Country on 28.07.17 17:18

Ваљда због тога што су новооптимистичне тезе биле проминентне у некадашњим свађама са Шредингером (на ФБ92), мени је то зацементирано као thinly veiled оправдање неолиберализма.

Иначе мислим да the humankind итекако постоји, макар у неком културно-цивилизацијско-егзистенцијалном значењу. "Наша цивилизација" се некуд креће, има глобалне изазове, расположења, потребе, болести. Тачно је да ту нема политике у било ком делатном облику - но управо то и јесте проблем, и такође глобални.
Indy

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Indy on 28.07.17 17:35

Mislim da je to i ekstremnije od neoliberalizma, makar kad je u pitanju citirani Matt Ridley. (U poređenju s njim, neoliberali su cica mace. Generalno ne znam nikoga sa gorom kombinacijom stavova - čak ni u Trump administraciji takvih nema, mada je Bannon tu negde.)

Rekao bih da je tu prisutan spektar stavova (od Saurona do Sarumana), nije sve baš tako crno (kao kad se npr. gleda Matt Ridley.) Neoliberali su po meni više ljudi kojima je jednostavno suviše dobro u životu da bi bili u stanju da (stalno) kritički razmišljaju. Otuda i odbacivanje politike, pa Lou Reed je to eksplicitno negde rekao, don't want to talk politics today, I feel too good...

Lupetam...


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No Country

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by No Country on 28.07.17 17:39

Мислио сам да је општепознато - Шредингеров неолиберализам је од врло милитантне сорте. 
Indy

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Indy on 28.07.17 17:49

Ja to više onako generalno...


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Guest on 28.07.17 18:12

Šredingerov liberalizam je šou program. Ubeđuje kako je na Islandu more privatizovano i da ne smeš da pecaš bez dozvole vlasnika, tj. ribara. Pokažu mu da to nema veze sa mozgom i da je sportski ribolov slobodan duž cele obale koja je, naravno, u državnom vlasništvu. Odgovor: ti si komunofašista. Kinikovo umobolno dosoljavanje: a ti želiš da ukineš narodu Islanda slobodu da raspolaže svojom obalom.

Ne bih ovo pisao da nisam video na Tržišnom rešenju direktan odjek stupidne rasprave na FB92 o tome treba li ukinuti kontrolu lekova. Argument je: treba to pustiti tržištu da reši, pa će onda oni sa manje novca kupovati lekove koji nisu prošli dugotrajna i nepotrebna ispitivanja od strane državnih tela. U suštini, agituju za povratak u XIX vek, onaj iz knjiga Marka Tvena. Intelektualna slabost cele te fele bukvalno para dušu.



No Country

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by No Country on 28.07.17 19:08

Чекај, јесу ли се то К. и Ш. у међувремену разишли?
William Murderface

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by William Murderface on 28.07.17 19:22

Blind Lime Pie wrote:Šredingerov liberalizam je šou program. Ubeđuje kako je na Islandu more privatizovano i da ne smeš da pecaš bez dozvole vlasnika, tj. ribara. Pokažu mu da to nema veze sa mozgom i da je sportski ribolov slobodan duž cele obale koja je, naravno, u državnom vlasništvu. Odgovor: ti si komunofašista. Kinikovo umobolno dosoljavanje: a ti želiš da ukineš narodu Islanda slobodu da raspolaže svojom obalom.

Ne bih ovo pisao da nisam video na Tržišnom rešenju direktan odjek stupidne rasprave na FB92 o tome treba li ukinuti kontrolu lekova. Argument je: treba to pustiti tržištu da reši, pa će onda oni sa manje novca kupovati lekove koji nisu prošli dugotrajna i nepotrebna ispitivanja od strane državnih tela. U suštini, agituju za povratak u XIX vek, onaj iz knjiga Marka Tvena. Intelektualna slabost cele te fele bukvalno para dušu.





Karapandza ih razvalio po tom pitanju. A ne da nije komunofasista, nego jd umereni neolib, samo ima nekog pojma o necemu i nije bubuljicavi pubertetlija i fanatik, sto se za njih ne bi moglo reci.


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Quincy Endicott

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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

Post by Quincy Endicott on 28.07.17 19:34

Blind Lime Pie wrote:Šredingerov liberalizam je šou program. Ubeđuje kako je na Islandu more privatizovano i da ne smeš da pecaš bez dozvole vlasnika, tj. ribara. Pokažu mu da to nema veze sa mozgom i da je sportski ribolov slobodan duž cele obale koja je, naravno, u državnom vlasništvu. Odgovor: ti si komunofašista. Kinikovo umobolno dosoljavanje: a ti želiš da ukineš narodu Islanda slobodu da raspolaže svojom obalom.

Ne bih ovo pisao da nisam video na Tržišnom rešenju direktan odjek stupidne rasprave na FB92 o tome treba li ukinuti kontrolu lekova. Argument je: treba to pustiti tržištu da reši, pa će onda oni sa manje novca kupovati lekove koji nisu prošli dugotrajna i nepotrebna ispitivanja od strane državnih tela. U suštini, agituju za povratak u XIX vek, onaj iz knjiga Marka Tvena. Intelektualna slabost cele te fele bukvalno para dušu.




Čekaj, neko ozbiljno promoviše ovu monstruoznost?


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Re: Pinker pred andjelima bolje prirode

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