pedofilija

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pedofilija

Post by bemty on Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:40 pm

dok sam bila nadobudna sredjoskolka kojoj je sve bilo jasno o uredjenju drustva, imala sam razne radikalne ideje. i ljudi bi vecinom reagovali sa 'kako god da ti kazes, dete' 

medjutim ideja koja je neizostavno izazivala bes je bila da su ljudi koje seksualno uzbudjuju deca, a koji nisu zlostavljali decu, ljudi kojima treba pruziti ruku. 

15+ godina kasnije, izadje ovaj tekst. govori o budjenju pedofilije kod klinaca u pubertetu, o anksioznosti, depresiji, o zastrasujucoj stigmi, o tome kako nemaju kome da se obrate. kako se terapeuti smrznu kad to cuju, kako je svima frka, kako ih posmatraju kao tempirane bombe. tekst je dirljiv i snazan, mestimicno prilicno tezak, ali ima pozitivni obrt: momak koji je i sam u toj poziciji, je zapoceo grupu podrske za sebi slicne. mladi ljudi koji pomazu jedni drugima da se suzdrze od ispoljavanja svojih tendencija. vredi procitati. 

a vredi i dati svoje misljenje ovde -_-
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Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:51 pm

zar to nije nalicije ideje o normalnoj seksualnosti?


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bela maca on Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:00 pm

meni je takvih ljudi neizmerno žao, naravno dok ne povrede nekoga, onda mi više nije žao.
ljudi ne biraju svoju seksualnost
baš sam sinoć odgledala ninfomanku, ima jedan deo baš sa nekim pedofilom. tu su rekli da samo oko 5% pedofila zapravo uradi nešto, povredi neko dete. ostali se bore sa sobom i žive u paklu koji im je priroda dodelila.

interesantna mi je ova tema, ali je gledam kao deo šire teme alternativnih seksualnosti, koje su i dalje stigmatizovane i tabuizirane, pa i onda kad nemaju nikoga za žrtve.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by Indy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Danas ima tekst u Guardianu o posebnoj vrsti alternativne seksualnosti - aseksualnosti. Tekst je OK, a komentari su vecinom puni nerazumevanja (pocev od toga "da li masturbiraju", pa do toga "kako to da nisu izumrli dosad, posto se ne razmnazaju").

Sto se tice ovog iz teme, bio je nedavno zanimljiv tekst u NYT, pokusacu da nadjem link. Dosta kontraverzan, puno negativnih komentara citalaca. EDIT. Evo ga link: A Disorder, not a crime


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bemty on Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:01 pm

bukmariram za kasnije! ali da, polaaako se dizu glasovi u odbranu pedofila koji nisu zlostavljaci. lepo je biti svedokom progresa.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:49 pm

Pa da, ogroman broj ljudi jos ne shvata da je, sa moralne tacke gledista, razlika izmedju pedofilske orijentacije i  zlostavljanja dece isto sto i razlika izmedju heteroseksualne orijentacije i silovanja zena (s tim sto muceni pedofili nemaju pristup legalnom ispoljavanju seksualnosti).


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Re: pedofilija

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:49 pm

timur chevket wrote:zar to nije nalicije ideje o normalnoj seksualnosti?
Mozes da razradis ovo pls?
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Re: pedofilija

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:25 pm

Mene muci ovaj izraz orijentacija. Receno je, ako dobro razumem, da imas neku orijentaciju za koju nisi odgovoran (valjda zato sto te je zadesila bez tvoje volje) sve dok ne postupis u skladu s njom. Je li to osobina u potenciji, ili je to vec ispoljena osobina uz to sto je tesko ne delati onako kako ona nalaze (a kao, ona mnogo intenzivnije "zahteva" delanje ako je pedofilska nego ako nije) ili nesto trece? Ja sam uvek laicki kapirala da nemas nista osim praksu i da je ta praksa jedino sto moze da se normira i da je ta norma nuzna da razgranici dve slobode. Ne znam cemu taj izraz orijentacija uopste sluzi i sta opisuje.
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Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:48 pm

gagorder wrote:
timur chevket wrote:zar to nije nalicije ideje o normalnoj seksualnosti?
Mozes da razradis ovo pls?

pa, granica izmedju normalne i patoloske seksualnosti je daleko poroznija nego sto se nama cini. fantazije, mastarije, perverzne zelje su jednostavno deo ljudske seksulnosti. njena normativizacija ima prvenstveno odredjenu komunalnu ulogu i pokusava da odgovori nasim idejama pravicnosti i zastite onih koji sebe ne mogu da stite.

to se neumitno doima arbitrarnim (kao u onoj raspravi o starijim maloletnicima i njihovoj seksualnosti) ali je zapravo rezultat nekog procesa misljenja.
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Re: pedofilija

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:44 pm

Pa ok, meni to nije sporno. Normativizacija prakse koja involvira drugoga koji ne pristaje ili ne moze punovazno da pristane - ciji "pristanak" zajednica ne priznaje. 
Zanimljiva mi je ta ideja da pedofilija pretstavlja gotovo mandatornu teznju, neki unutrasnji poriv kome se mnogo teze odupreti nego drugim oblicima seksualnosti. Iz toga onda derivira saosecajnost prema nekome ko je uspeo da se odupre toj teznji. Sve to se izvodi iz one podele orijentacija / praksa. I dalje ne kapiram sasvim sta je to orijentacija, deluje mi kao neka deklaracija zelje ili dominantne zelje u katalogu zelja. Ne znam kako je to relevantno uopste. Je li orijentacija izmenjiva? Jesu li sve imenovane tj prepoznate ...
Beti, je l pedofilija razvrstana kao bolest?
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Re: pedofilija

Post by Ointagru Unartan on Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:12 pm

gagorder wrote:Mene muci ovaj izraz orijentacija. Receno je, ako dobro razumem, da imas neku orijentaciju za koju nisi odgovoran (valjda zato sto te je zadesila bez tvoje volje) sve dok ne postupis u skladu s njom. Je li to osobina u potenciji, ili je to vec ispoljena osobina uz to sto je tesko ne delati onako kako ona nalaze (a kao, ona mnogo intenzivnije "zahteva" delanje ako je pedofilska nego ako nije) ili nesto trece? Ja sam uvek laicki kapirala da nemas nista osim praksu i da je ta praksa jedino sto moze da se normira i da je ta norma nuzna da razgranici dve slobode. Ne znam cemu taj izraz orijentacija uopste sluzi i sta opisuje.

Ne razumem sta znaci da imas samo praksu i sta podrazumevas pod praksom. Seksualna orijentacija se uvek manifestuje na neki nacin, naprimer putem erotskih mastanja o objektu  zelje. Da li to spada u praksu? Kada se, za jednu osobu, uvek radi o istom tipu seksualnih objekata, onda je valjda razumno pretpostaviti da se ne radi o koincidenciji, vec da postoji nesto, neki trajni element njegove licnosti koji ga usmerava ka tom objektu.


Zanimljiva mi je ta ideja da pedofilija pretstavlja gotovo mandatornu teznju, neki unutrasnji poriv kome se mnogo teze odupreti nego drugim oblicima seksualnosti.

Ko to tvrdi?


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Re: pedofilija

Post by Indy on Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:51 pm

Posto imam tu vrlo sumnjivu prednost da sam matoriji od vecine ovde, secam se vremena kada je takva "orijentacija" (u nedostatku bolje reci) bila naravno proskribovana (kao sto mislim da ispoljavanje te orijentacije i treba da bude), ali nije bila ono sto je danas - tabu. Barem ne u toj meri kao danas. U stvari, to je prakticno jedini tabu u zapadnom svetu kog mogu da se setim ovako na brzinu.

Golisave (cak i erotizovane) slike dece su se normalno stampale u prilicno respektabilnim publikacijama na Zapadu (npr. PHOTO France), a bogme i u Jugoslaviji. Rok i druge zvezde su otvoreno govorile o seksu sa onima koji su ispod granice pristanka (mislim da je vecina groupies bila dobrano ispod 18, pa i 16).

Danas su sve te stvari ne samo ilegalne, nego i tabu. Vec ne znam koliko puta sam procitao u vestima da je neko uhvacen u downloadovanju decije pornografije pocinio samoubistvo pre nego sto su stigli da ga uhapse. Posebno mi je "omiljen" stav prisutan u javnosti da ce takvi pocinioci zasluzeno platiti za svoje grehe u zatvorima od strane "postenih kriminalaca i ubica". Cruel and unusual punishment je, izgleda, OK, cak i pozeljan, u nekim slucajevima.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by William Murderface on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:03 pm

Potpuno se slažem, stigma je užasan problem za bilo kakvu prevenciju.

Odlična tema i jako zanimljiva rasprava. Za mene je posebno zanimljiv politički aspekt problema. Čini mi se da je saavremeni liberlizam u svojim najboljim i meni najbližim vidovima, zasnovan na jednoj fragilnoj ravnoteži između moralnosti i dostizanju individualne sreće, tj, na ovosvetizaciji kantovskog summum bonum-a. U liberalnoj viziji, law abiding citizen može očekivati sreću i samoostvarenje, a oni kojima e čini drugačije su ili u zabludi, ili su na neki način iracionalni, ili u najgorem slučaju bolesni. Ali u načelu se i njima da objasniti, ili ih se terapijom ili lečenje privjesti poznaniju prava.

Mislim da se upravo zato tako brzo pedofili ili demonizuju ili se proglašavaju bolesnim. Ako su prosto zli, onda su, jbg, sami krivi. Ako su pak bolesni, treba im pomoći, "izlečiti ih". Ozbiljan izazov je, međutim, ako nisu ni jedno ni drugo. Šta ako pedofilija, a ja sam sve skloniji da verujem da je tako, nije nikakva bolest, već zaista trajna orijentacija? U tom slučaju se pedofilima može reći samo jedno - da nikada neće moći da ostvare ono što većina ljudi smatra najnormalnijim delom ovozemaljske sreće. Jedini način da budu law abiding citizens jeste doživotna represija sopstvenih najdubljih želja. Religijski pogled na svet nema problem sa tim, ali za jedan sekularni poredak, ovo jeste prilično ozbiljan izazov.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bemty on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:22 pm

u amsterdamu su inace zapoceli jednu novu vrstu terapije koja izaziva opste zgrazavanje (izvan holandije, naravno i u nekim krugovima i unutar nje): kreiranje virtuelne realnosti za pedofile. daje im se outlet, tj. nudi zamena za deciju pornografiju. amsterdamski psiholozi tvrde da imaju razloga da veruju da ce ovo smanjiti verovatnocu da ce neko dete biti silovano, neku drugi tvrde da ce povecati... klackalica. program je sasvim nov, u pilot fazi, tako da se ovom prilikom obavezujem da cu ostati na forumima bar jos 10 godina kako bih obavestila o prvim rezultatima.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by William Murderface on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:25 pm

Nisam znao za program, ali mi je nekakva vrsta VR pornografije pala na pamet. Ali nešto mi se tu čini potpuno pogrešnim, pokušaću da raščivijam intuiciju, mislim da nije samo gut reaction.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:59 pm

meni bi bilo zanimljivo da vidim neke podatke ali imam neki osecaj da su pocinioci prdofilskog nasilja najcesce ljudi koji su figure autoruteta u strogo hijerarhizovanim situacijama: roditelji, nastavnici, svestenici i lekari.

bemty, znas nesto vise o tome?


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bemty on Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:46 pm

uh, ne znam brojke (posebno za incest, niko ne zna brojke jer je tabu), ali svakako su to ljudi sa vise kontakta s decom, pa je time i verovatnoca veca. a autoritet pomaze da se dete ubedi da ne isprica nikom, sto opet povecava verovatnocu.

meni je bilo zanimljivo zapazanje iz prvog linka kako veci deo ljudi koji pocini pedofilski cin nije imalo fantazija o deci prethodno. deluje da se najcesce radi o ljudima koji sadisticki uzivaju u poziciji moci, gde je seks samo bonus. i to lici na ove grupe koje si pobrojao.
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Re: pedofilija

Post by otto katz on Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:28 pm

Ovdje kod mene su u skoro svim javnosti poznatim slučajevima počinioci bili vaspitači, treneri i učitelji, tipično u slobodnim aktivnostima, muzika, sport isl. Najmanje dva od njih su izjavili poslije da su zanimanje izabrali radi dostupnosti djece.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:36 pm

bemty wrote:uh, ne znam brojke (posebno za incest, niko ne zna brojke jer je tabu), ali svakako su to ljudi sa vise kontakta s decom, pa je time i verovatnoca veca. a autoritet pomaze da se dete ubedi da ne isprica nikom, sto opet povecava verovatnocu.

meni je bilo zanimljivo zapazanje iz prvog linka kako veci deo ljudi koji pocini pedofilski cin nije imalo fantazija o deci prethodno. deluje da se najcesce radi o ljudima koji sadisticki uzivaju u poziciji moci, gde je seks samo bonus. i to lici na ove grupe koje si pobrojao.

pitam zbog


zizek wrote:We reach thereby the "heart of darkness" of habits. Recall numerous cases of pedophilia that shatter the Catholic Church: when its representatives insists that these cases, deplorable as they are, are Church's internal problem, and display great reluctance to collaborate with police in their investigation, they are, in a way, right - the pedophilia of Catholic priests is not something that concerns merely the persons who, because of accidental reasons of private history with no relation to the Church as an institution, happened to chose the profession of a priest; it is a phenomenon that concerns the Catholic Church as such, that is inscribed into its very functioning as a socio-symbolic institution. It does not concern the "private" unconscious of individuals, but the "unconscious" of the institution itself: it is not something that happens because the Institution has to accommodate itself to the pathological realities of libidinal life in order to survive, but something that the institution itself needs in order to reproduce itself. One can well imagine a "straight" (not pedophiliac) priest who, after years of service, gets involved in pedophilia because the very logic of the institution seduces him into it. Such an institutional Unconscious designates the obscene disavowed underside that, precisely as disavowed, sustains the public institution. (In the army, this underside consists of the obscene sexualized rituals of fragging etc. which sustain the group solidarity.) In other words, it is not simply that, for conformist reasons, the Church tries to hush up the embarrassing pedophilic scandals; in defending itself, the Church defends its innermost obscene secret. What this means is that identifying oneself with this secret side is a key constituent of the very identity of a Christian priest: if a priest seriously (not just rhetorically) denounces these scandals, he thereby excludes himself from the ecclesiastic community, he is no longer "one of us" (in exactly the same way a citizen of a town in the South of the US in the 1920s, if he denounced Ku Klux Klan to the police, excluded himself from his community, i.e., betrayed its fundamental solidarity). Consequently, the answer to the Church's reluctance should be not only that we are dealing with criminal cases and that, if Church does not fully participate in their investigation, it is an accomplice after the fact; moreover, Church AS SUCH, as an institution, should be investigated with regard to the way it systematically creates conditions for such crimes. 
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Re: pedofilija

Post by bemty on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:07 am

sve mi to zvuci blisko razumu. s druge strane, na to pitanje sam nasla i ovaj odgovor na jednom mestu:

The most exhaustive analysis on this question was performed by Philip Jenkins in his book Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis. Jenkins conclusions, in a nutshell, are that:


  • Catholic priests do not commit sexual abuse against minors at a rate higher than other faiths or occupations, and in fact may have rates of sexual abuse less than that of many or most other professions
  • that the incidence of "pedophilia", i.e., sexual relations with pre-pubescent child, as compared with "ebophilia," sexual relations with post-adolescent teenagers, is extremely small
  • the popular perception of pedophilia and Catholic priests owes much to deeply imbedded historical, American anti-Catholic prejudice and a confluence of sociological factors, including the breakdown of Catholicism as a key identity of Catholics, and the fact that because of its structure, the Catholic Church has "deep pockets" that make it an attractive "target" for suits.


Jenkins' study was performed in the late '90s, but its conclusions have held up over time. The recent John Jay College Report on the Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States, 1950 - 2010, published in May of 2011, confirms that the number of priests accused of child abuse was around 4% of the total number of priests, that the number of priests who were true pedophiles was around 5% of priests acccused of child abuse, and that the incidence of child abuse peaked around 1970 and has fallen since that time. [One should also be aware that not all "child abuse" allegations involve allegations of physical impropriety.]

The John Jay Report contains information about the incidence of child abuse within other faiths and child service organizations. Making a precise comparison of other institutions with the Catholic Church is hampered by the fact that while the Catholic Church has made its data known, other faiths and institutions have engaged in pretty much the behavior that the Catholic Church engaged in prior to the child care scandal shining the light on the issue on the Catholic Church. The publicity given to the Catholic Church has permitted other institutions to escape attention. For example, a report by Charol Shakeshaft in 2004 has been largely ignored. That report synthesized data found from a variety of sources and concluded that 7% of students in grades 8 to 11 had experienced an unwanted sexual contact, with 21% of those being perpetrated by educators. There has, as yet, been no public outcry against schools or educators with respect to "pedophilia" as there has been against the Catholic Church.

The John Jay Report purports to exonerate homosexuality and celibacy as the "causes" of the pedophilia crisis, preferring instead to assign the cause to the general breakdown of social mores during the "Woodstock era." Given the fact that celibate priests are no more likely to engage in pedophilia/ebophilia than other groups, and that the number of child abuse incidents have declined notwithstanding the continuation of the celibacy requirement, it seems contrary to the facts to argue that celibacy causes child abuse or that Catholicism has some propensity toward child abuse.
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Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:14 am

bemty wrote:sve mi to zvuci blisko razumu. s druge strane, na to pitanje sam nasla i ovaj odgovor na jednom mestu:

The most exhaustive analysis on this question was performed by Philip Jenkins in his book Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis. Jenkins conclusions, in a nutshell, are that:


  • Catholic priests do not commit sexual abuse against minors at a rate higher than other faiths or occupations, and in fact may have rates of sexual abuse less than that of many or most other professions
  • that the incidence of "pedophilia", i.e., sexual relations with pre-pubescent child, as compared with "ebophilia," sexual relations with post-adolescent teenagers, is extremely small
  • the popular perception of pedophilia and Catholic priests owes much to deeply imbedded historical, American anti-Catholic prejudice and a confluence of sociological factors, including the breakdown of Catholicism as a key identity of Catholics, and the fact that because of its structure, the Catholic Church has "deep pockets" that make it an attractive "target" for suits.


Jenkins' study was performed in the late '90s, but its conclusions have held up over time. The recent John Jay College Report on the Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States, 1950 - 2010, published in May of 2011, confirms that the number of priests accused of child abuse was around 4% of the total number of priests, that the number of priests who were true pedophiles was around 5% of priests acccused of child abuse, and that the incidence of child abuse peaked around 1970 and has fallen since that time. [One should also be aware that not all "child abuse" allegations involve allegations of physical impropriety.]

The John Jay Report contains information about the incidence of child abuse within other faiths and child service organizations. Making a precise comparison of other institutions with the Catholic Church is hampered by the fact that while the Catholic Church has made its data known, other faiths and institutions have engaged in pretty much the behavior that the Catholic Church engaged in prior to the child care scandal shining the light on the issue on the Catholic Church. The publicity given to the Catholic Church has permitted other institutions to escape attention. For example, a report by Charol Shakeshaft in 2004 has been largely ignored. That report synthesized data found from a variety of sources and concluded that 7% of students in grades 8 to 11 had experienced an unwanted sexual contact, with 21% of those being perpetrated by educators. There has, as yet, been no public outcry against schools or educators with respect to "pedophilia" as there has been against the Catholic Church.

The John Jay Report purports to exonerate homosexuality and celibacy as the "causes" of the pedophilia crisis, preferring instead to assign the cause to the general breakdown of social mores during the "Woodstock era." Given the fact that celibate priests are no more likely to engage in pedophilia/ebophilia than other groups, and that the number of child abuse incidents have declined notwithstanding the continuation of the celibacy requirement, it seems contrary to the facts to argue that celibacy causes child abuse or that Catholicism has some propensity toward child abuse.

ovaj poslednji pasus mi je ocigledno biased. ispada da je zapravo skidanje tabua sa seksualnosti problem. sta ako zaista odredjene drustvene masine proizvode ili makar podsticu odredjena ponasanja koja smatramo devijantnima? na primer, odredjena ritualizacija nasilja i vojne akademije. hajde da budem djavolji advokat: meni se i dalje cini da su slucajevi pedofilije (ili ebofilije) zapravo proizvod strogo hijerarhizovanih organizacija koje za cilj imaju kontrolu nad decom i kojima dominiraju muskarci?
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Re: pedofilija

Post by William Murderface on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:17 am

Mislim da nakon Savilovog i Sendaskievog slučaja, nemamo nikakvog razloga da verujemo da katolička crkva odskače od bilo koje slabo transparentne institucije sa zaštićenom elitom.


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Re: pedofilija

Post by Indy on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:18 am

@bemty
Interesantan tip. (Wiki)

Morao sam da proverim da li je katolik (delimicno tacno.)


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Eto šta škola učini od čoveka! A mogao je da bude majstor, kad toliko voli.
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Join date : 2014-10-27

Re: pedofilija

Post by bruno sulak on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:21 am

William Murderface wrote:Mislim da nakon Savilovog i Sendaskievog slučaja, nemamo nikakvog razloga da verujemo da katolička crkva odskače od bilo koje slabo transparentne institucije sa zaštićenom elitom.


pa dobro ali to je ono o cemu i pricamo, zar ne? netransparentne institucije sa zasticenom elitom.


Last edited by timur chevket on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Join date : 2012-06-10

Re: pedofilija

Post by William Murderface on Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:23 am

Pa jes


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije

Re: pedofilija

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