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    Predlozi za čitanje o Ukrajini

    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:31 am

    Pominjali smo potrebu za ovim topikom i evo ga.

    Dakle, ne topik za praćenje ratnih operacija, nego za više teorijske teme.


    Za početak, evo dva Volzera o Ukrajini:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-just-war-of-the-ukrainians-11648214810

    https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/our-ukraine


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:35 am

    wsj mora pretplata
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:52 am

    Meni nije trebalo, ali svejedno, evo ga.

    Spoiler:


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

    Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
    Janko Suvar

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    Post by Janko Suvar Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:54 am

    A conqueror,” wrote the military theorist Carl von Clausewitz, “is always a lover of peace. He would like to make his entry into our state unopposed; in order to prevent this, we must choose to fight.” The crime of aggression is to force men and women to make that choice. They can, of course, choose not to fight, as Czechoslovakia did in 1938 when it was betrayed by its allies and left to face Nazi Germany alone. But most people believe that the right choice is to defend your country.

    Vladimir Putin apparently believed that the Ukrainians would choose not to fight against Russian invasion—because, he claimed, its inhabitants were really Russians, or because Ukraine was ruled by Nazis and its citizens would welcome liberation. If either of those beliefs had been true, we might not call the Russian war aggression. But the Ukrainians have proven them false. They have proven the value of Ukrainian statehood and the reality of Ukrainian democracy by fighting and dying to defend both.

    Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is illegal under international law, and it is unjust according to every version of just war theory. The decision to begin a war and the subsequent conduct of the war have always been subject to moral judgment. In Europe, just war theory dates from the Middle Ages. It was most fully developed by Catholic theologians, but it also appears in Jewish and Muslim versions. (There are Hindu, Buddhist and Confucian versions, too). And for just as long, “realists” have denied the meaningfulness and the efficacy of all such judgments. Realism is the major alternative to both international law and just war theory.


    The conduct of the war by the Russian army clearly violates the Geneva Conventions, and it fails to meet the just war requirement to fight in ways that avoid or minimize civilian casualties. The Ukrainians chose to fight, but it is the Russians who are putting civilians at risk. They have added to the crime of aggression the crime of total war, in one of its oldest and deadliest forms: the siege. Besieging a city, as the Russian army is now doing to Mariupol, is a way of fighting that directly engages and endangers the civilian population. The idea is to surround the city, cut off supplies, bar civilians from leaving and wait until starving men and women force their soldiers to surrender.

    It doesn’t always work, as the Russians should know. Leningrad endured a siege by German forces from 1941 to 1943 and never surrendered, though a million of its citizens died of starvation and disease. At Nuremberg in 1945, Field Marshal Wilhelm von Leeb, commander of the siege, was put on trial for ordering his soldiers to fire at civilians fleeing the city. He was found not guilty; siege warfare was not regulated by international law, and barring civilian flight was “customary” practice.

    Theorists of just war have argued differently. The medieval Jewish philosopher Maimonides states that “when siege is laid to a city for the purpose of capture, it may not be surrounded on all four sides, but only on three, in order to give an opportunity for escape to those who would flee to save their lives.” It may sound like a hopelessly naive position—how can you surround a city on three sides? Maimonides’ rule seems to bar sieges entirely.


    What it actually does is to lower the odds of capturing the city. And that is the crucial point of all the rules that aim to protect civilians from the ravages of war. The deliberate killing of civilians may be a way to win, but armies fighting justly are required to look for other ways (there are other ways). Sitting outside a city, as the Russians are now doing, and using artillery and airstrikes indiscriminately against civilians locked inside—this is a strategy that greatly reduces the risks to soldiers on the ground and may lead, over time, to a victory without serious costs to the invaders. Nonetheless, it is a war crime. Other countries, including our own, may have committed similar crimes, but the existence of wrongs elsewhere is never a justification for wrongs here and now.

    Historically, foreign-policy “realists” have mocked this argument. How many armies, they might ask, have risked military success or their own lives in order to reduce the risks that civilians must live with? It has been a feature of realism to refuse to blame soldiers who do anything they can, at any cost to other people, for the sake of their own survival or their army’s victory. Modern realists seldom go so far. Almost everyone in the U.S. and Europe observing the invasion of Ukraine has no difficulty condemning the barbarism of Russian war-making.

    The realist argument these days takes another form, having to do with the war itself and not with the conduct of the war. Realists claim to understand Mr. Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine, even if they deplore its price. Great powers are entitled to a sphere of influence beyond their borders, they argue, and the eastward expansion of NATO seemed to deny Russia its natural sphere. On this view, the idea that little countries near big and powerful countries are entitled to full independence and sovereignty is naive.

    That idea is indeed the deep foundation of the moral critique of aggression, and it has had a kind of historical confirmation. The post-World War II settlement, designed at the Yalta conference, gave Russia its sphere of influence in all of Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union was recognized as a great power, and it proceeded to establish satellite states and ideologically sympathetic governments throughout its sphere. Realism was given a trial run.

    But the refusal to allow anything like local self-determination—the creation instead of brutal, authoritarian, subservient regimes—proved disastrous for the people of the satellite states and ultimately for Russia itself. The failed uprisings in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 showed the necessity of an independent state, a state in the hands of its own people, and the collapse of the Soviet bloc decades later vindicated that powerful idea, as true realists should acknowledge.

    A similar story, not the same but not entirely different, could also be told about the American sphere of influence. The refugees struggling to cross our southern border are fleeing corrupt and authoritarian states in whose creation we have often had a hand, states that have never been in the hands of their own people. Their flight is another testimony to the importance of independence and self-government.

    The Ukrainian affirmation of statehood and sovereignty comes at a time when students of international politics have been writing about the end of the Westphalian system and the necessary transcendence of the nation-state. The truth is that we need cooperation across borders, but we also need borders like the ones Ukrainian fighters are now struggling to re-establish.
    One day the devastated cities of Ukraine will be rebuilt, and the work will require assistance from outside. This will be an international project but not a cosmopolitan one; it won’t be citizens of the world who will join in but rather citizens of many states who will press their governments to provide the necessary funds. The state remains the critically necessary agent of humanity’s well-being. It is also, too often, the agent of persecution and war. That’s why we still need theories of justice that address the actually existing state system, warn of its dangers and explain its value.

    —Mr. Walzer is a professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study and the author of “Just and Unjust Wars,” among many other books of political theory.

    Copyright ©2022 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8
    Appeared in the March 26, 2022, print edition as 'The Just War of the Ukrainians Just and Unjust War in Ukraine.'


    edit: a jel se setis nekad kako ce Dzef Bezos da prehrani decu svoju, jel ti to palo na pamet tako sebicnom?
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:06 am

    Dobar tekst, ali meni se cini da pogled iz Amerike na ovo sto se desava ima svoja ogranicenja cak i kad se radi o briljantnim umovima.
    Bleeding Blitva

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    Post by Bleeding Blitva Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:12 pm

    https://www.e-flux.com/journal/126/459559/the-west-at-war-on-the-self-enclosure-of-the-liberal-mind/

    Putin kao korisni idiot Zapada i još svašta nešto


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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:22 pm

    Does the West have laws, a secretary of foreign affairs, a ministry of defense? “The West” has nothing like that, 

    Pa dobro, ovo bas i nije tacno. Ima Nato, ima EU, ima sad i onaj AUKUS... postoje tu neki zakoni, pravila, ministri, sekretari...
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:42 pm

    A Croat can be held accountable before a tribunal in the Hague, yet it’s impossible to imagine an American, British, or French citizen being tried there, regardless of what they have done.

    Oh, awww
    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:12 pm

    https://pescanik.net/ukrajina-rat-kao-nastavak-politike-istorije/
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:13 pm

    The culmination of this revolutionary adventure of the West was the creation of a team of professional world revolutionaries in the guise of the Serbian movement Otpor (“Resistance”), 

    Ok, I'm sorry but kindly feck off

    Ovo mu ne treći put

    Citao sam pazljivo, ali nek leci svoje komplekse na nekom drugom vise
    Ferenc Puskás

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    Post by Ferenc Puskás Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:34 pm

    The European Union looks like another beneficiary of the war.
    Ovo nije baš baš. 


    denazification is no less nonsensical, unless it’s applied equally to Russia, beginning with Putin himself and his ultra-right clique—and this too should ideally extend to the West, to Poland, and further to Germany and France.

    Ovo mi se dopada. Denacifikacija svima, a ne samo njima! 

    I generalno se slažem, ja sve ovo isto priželjkujem, uključujući i Ukrajince kao vojsku revolucije u Moskvi. A sad još malo, pa idem spavat.


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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:39 pm

    Ne mogu, previse se ponavlja. Na stranu ovi lokalni primeri koje mi se bas ne svidja kako ih upoteebljava. I btw, time se veoma negira local agency, koji, kao, podrzava.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:08 pm

    Ili, ok, ajmo dalje.

    What is missing today in the bloody drama in Ukraine is the idea of revolution. Or more precisely: we miss Lenin—a figure who radically challenges the binary logic behind the clash between two normative identity blocs. 

    Sta od toga tacno je radi Lenjin? Kad je on tacno "izazivao" logiku sukoba izmedju koja dva tačno "identity" bloka?
    boomer crook

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    Post by boomer crook Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:13 pm

    pa dobro jeste lenjin figura koji ide protiv blokovske podele


    _____
    And Will's father stood up, stuffed his pipe with tobacco, rummaged his pockets for matches, brought out a battered harmonica, a penknife, a cigarette lighter that wouldn't work, and a memo pad he had always meant to write some great thoughts down on but never got around to, and lined up these weapons for a pygmy war that could be lost before it even started
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:20 pm

    The Bolshevik Revolution not only overthrew the Russian Empire, executed the czar (who had pushed his people into a bloody imperialist war), and laid the political and cultural foundations for modern Ukraine. 

    So, Putin was right? 

    Ali sve i da jeste (a nije bas stoprocentno tako), Lenjin i boljsevici su to uradili vise zato sto su morali, nego zato sto su nesto posebno to zeleli.

    A zanimljivo je i ovo - u koji tacno imperijalisticki rat je Nikolaj II gurnuo Rusiju? Posto ja znam za samo jedan rat koji je bio u toku kad je naredio mobilizaciju.


    Last edited by Mór Thököly on Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:20 pm

    boomer crook wrote:pa dobro jeste lenjin figura koji ide protiv blokovske podele

    To je u redu, ali koji tacno "identitet" je predstavljala Antanta?
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:33 pm

    This also retroactively explains why the West failed in the former Yugoslavia. It did not have a vision of democracy that went beyond the nation-state. The reason for the war was not the civilizational difference between Western/European democracy and the endemic nationalism of the Balkans, but rather the final Westernization of the country, which imposed the logic of the nation-state in a space of extreme cultural, linguistic, and historical heterogeneity.

    Super. Odakle su se pojavile te nation-states sa sve granicama i pravom na samoopredeljenje do otcepljenja? Da nije iz lenjinizma mozda?
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:39 pm

    The former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not built on an identity

    Ovo - prosto nije tačno. Mozemo da kazemo da nije gradjena na nacionalnom etnickom identitetu, ali to je as far as it goes.
    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:44 pm

    Zakljucak je relativno ok, osim sto tacno takav scenario - tesko da ce se desiti. Jedan od razloga je sto se vec jednom desio i - nit se tacno tako odigrao, nit se rezultat danas svidja bilo rusima, bilo ukrajincima.
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:35 pm

    Étienne Balibar:
    I would say that the Ukrainians’ war against the Russian invasion is a “just war,” in the strong sense of the term. I am well aware that this is a questionable category, and that its long history in the West has not been free from manipulation and hypocrisy, or disastrous illusions, but I see no other suitable term.
    I appropriate it, therefore, while specifying that a “just” war is one where it is not enough to recognize the legitimacy of those defending themselves against aggression — the criterion in international law — but where it is necessary to make a commitment to their side. And that it is a war where even those, like me, for whom all war — or all war today, in the present state of the world — is unacceptable or disastrous, do not have the choice of remaining passive. For the consequence of that would be still worse. I therefore feel no enthusiasm, but I choose: against Putin.
    https://jacobin.com/2022/07/russia-ukraine-war-nato-expansion-diplomacy-military-aid


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:56 pm

    Nije bas o Ukrajini, ali povodom Ukrajine.


    https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/the-ethics-of-realism

    https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/realisms-imperial-origins


    _____
    "Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

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    Nektivni Ugnelj

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    Post by Nektivni Ugnelj Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:09 am

    Ono sto sve buni je antikolonijalna priroda nacionalizma, u ovom slucaju ukrajinskog. A ono sto ih posebno buni je - odakle sad antikolonijalizam usred Evrope...to mora da je nesto drugo!

    A ozbiljan antikolonijalizam i antiimperijalizam je bukvalno rodjen u Evropi, nacionalisticki dabome. To buni i Habermasa, cini mi se.

    Realizam je prosto pregazilo vreme. Planeta se smanjila, time-space se promenio.
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:22 am

    Pa mislim da Habermasa ne buni, on je samo u fazonu da je to anahronizam, ili je bar iz nekog drugog tajmlajna u odnosu na onaj u kome su zemlje Zapadne Evrope. Kod njih je to bilo i prošlo, odnosno one su i prema nacionalizmu (sa njegovim herojskim moralom) zauzele refleksivnu distancu, a kod ovih još nije prošlo, nego je u toku.



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    Del Cap

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    Post by Del Cap Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:28 am

    al neće ni istočnoevropljanin da bude dekolonizator, jer prvo mora da pristane na ulogu kolonije u jednom periodu istorije, a to em nije kul ni u skladu sa herojskom vertikalom samorazumevanja, nego je pak rezervisano za tamo neke crnce, afrikance itd, ne ide ta uloga poštenom belom 'rišćaninu usred evrope.
    Erős Pista

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    Post by Erős Pista Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:30 am

    Iskreno, nisam siguran da je to ubedljiva priča za Evropu, barem ne za Evropu danas, i kad god  se potegne ja sam sumnjičav prema njoj. Možda je antikolonijalizam potekao iz Evrope, ali sve manje razlike između država i naroda Evrope, plus vekovi mešanja i gledanje jednih na druge kao na slične ako već ne i na srodne, čini priču o antikolonijalizmu vrlo nategnutom. Antiimperijalizam je već nešto drugo.

    Pisali smo već o tome negde, imam osećaj da se ponavljam, ali ako sve strane u sukobu mogu da pogledaju svoju istoriju i kažu - mi smo antikolonijalisti, a vi kolonijalisti, onda tu nešto ne fercera. U antikolonijalnim borbama u Africi, Aziji i Južnoj Americi nema takvih dilema, niti bi ih uopšte moglo biti. Način na koji se eks-SFRJ nacionalizmi legitimišu jedni prema drugima kao antikolonijalni je case in point. Jedino možda na Kosovu to ima i mrvicu ubedljivosti, ali tu zapravo postoji ono što drugde ne postoji - dovoljno jaka kulturalna razlika, kojoj onda može da se nalepi skoro rasni značaj. Hoću da kažem, nema kolonizacije bez jake rasističke komponente. A ja to danas u Evropi zaista ne vidim, šta god pisao Kamil Gelejev.

    Rusija i Ukrajina... ne znam, ali nije to. Kao što odnos Srbije prema CG, pa čak i Bosni, nije to. Mislim, očigledno da je odnos Rusije prema Ukrajine i obratno  kompleksan i sastoji se od nekoliko različitih okvira i vizura, ali rekao bih da nijedna nije baš kolonijalna, pa samim tim ni antikolonijalna.


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