UK - Politika i društvo

Kondo

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Post by Kondo on Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:09 pm

Gargamel wrote:
bruno sulak wrote:nije podrzavao IRA vec ujedinjenu irsku. nije isto. kod IRA je sporan metod a ne cilj. ili nije?
podržavao je i IRA, nema tu neke dileme. šta tu jeste i nije sporno, mene zabole. pitaj nekog ko živi u Lidsu ili Birmingemu.


npr. bivši kolega je do 2015-e je glasao za laburiste, nakon toga za torijevce. mislim da je u pitanju to što je bio u RAF-u na Foklandima.

jednom prilikom sam ga pitao šta su koji q tražili na Foklandima, i kratko je odgovorio: "It's a part of the UK, we defended our country" (primer koji ne dokazuje ništa, ali bi mogao biti ilustrativan).

Corbyn supports a "negotiated settlement" with the Falkland Islands that may involve "some degree of joint administration" with Argentina. His election as party leader was welcomed by Argentine president Cristina Kirchner who described him as a "great friend of Latin America".


a šta misliš o kosovu?

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Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
Gargamel

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Post by Gargamel on Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:24 pm

Kondo wrote:a šta misliš o kosovu?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/aug/02/warcrimes.serbia
Shamelessly bought with $1.3bn of aid for a country ravaged by sanctions and Nato bombing, Milosevic's extradition had to be forced through by decree, in defiance of Yugoslavia's constitutional court, by a government which knew it stood no chance of getting the decision through parliament.

That is presumably why - as the new Belgrade administration dug up corpses to order - the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, described the cash as a "dividend of democracy".
ćaća

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Post by ćaća on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:04 pm

Gargamel wrote:
bruno sulak wrote:nije podrzavao IRA vec ujedinjenu irsku. nije isto. kod IRA je sporan metod a ne cilj. ili nije?
podržavao je i IRA, nema tu neke dileme. šta tu jeste i nije sporno, mene zabole. pitaj nekog ko živi u Lidsu ili Birmingemu.


npr. bivši kolega je do 2015-e je glasao za laburiste, nakon toga za torijevce. mislim da je u pitanju to što je bio u RAF-u na Foklandima.

jednom prilikom sam ga pitao šta su koji q tražili na Foklandima, i kratko je odgovorio: "It's a part of the UK, we defended our country" (primer koji ne dokazuje ništa, ali bi mogao biti ilustrativan).

Corbyn supports a "negotiated settlement" with the Falkland Islands that may involve "some degree of joint administration" with Argentina. His election as party leader was welcomed by Argentine president Cristina Kirchner who described him as a "great friend of Latin America".


E vala ima je rašta i ginuti.

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VIVE LA FRANCE ET VIVE LE ROI HENRI!
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:09 pm

New Conservative MPs have rushed to sign up with the party’s hardline group of Eurosceptics, casting doubt on claims that the size of Boris Johnson’s general election victory will allow him to ignore them.Newly elected Tories outnumbered their experienced colleagues at the first meeting of the European Research Group (ERG) since last Thursday’s vote, its chairman said.

Tajms
Indy

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Post by Indy on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:21 pm

KinderLad wrote:sad najbolje da se pokolju do krvi oko toga

Djamolidine Abdoujaparov

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Post by Djamolidine Abdoujaparov on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:23 pm

Zuper wrote:
KinderLad wrote:Da, "mi" na primer gledamo sta neko radi, a ne gde se slika. 

Korbin nije bio idealan kandidat iz nekih drugih razloga, ali ovo sto mu se kaci je smesno. Prvi problem sa tim socijalistickim levicarima (ne govorim o levom centru, to je drugo, nego bas o socijalistima) je sto su neuporedivo moralniji u politickoj borbi od skoro bilo cega drugog od ekstremne levice do ekstremne desnice. Na zalost, politika je blato.

Ali nije popularno podrzavati IRA-u u Engleskoj koja je od 1968-1988 ostavila preko 10 000 bombaskih napada i desetine ako ne i stotine mrtvih sirom Engleske.

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Siri, what is The Troubles?
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:25 pm

Indy wrote:
KinderLad wrote:sad najbolje da se pokolju do krvi oko toga

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William Murderface

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Post by William Murderface on Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:07 pm

Djamolidine Abdoujaparov wrote:
Zuper wrote:

Ali nije popularno podrzavati IRA-u u Engleskoj koja je od 1968-1988 ostavila preko 10 000 bombaskih napada i desetine ako ne i stotine mrtvih sirom Engleske.

UK - Politika i društvo  - Page 4 286371741

Siri, what is The Troubles?


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:06 am

Gargamel wrote:
bruno sulak wrote:nije podrzavao IRA vec ujedinjenu irsku. nije isto. kod IRA je sporan metod a ne cilj. ili nije?
podržavao je i IRA, nema tu neke dileme. šta tu jeste i nije sporno, mene zabole. pitaj nekog ko živi u Lidsu ili Birmingemu.


npr. bivši kolega je do 2015-e je glasao za laburiste, nakon toga za torijevce. mislim da je u pitanju to što je bio u RAF-u na Foklandima.

jednom prilikom sam ga pitao šta su koji q tražili na Foklandima, i kratko je odgovorio: "It's a part of the UK, we defended our country" (primer koji ne dokazuje ništa, ali bi mogao biti ilustrativan).

Corbyn supports a "negotiated settlement" with the Falkland Islands that may involve "some degree of joint administration" with Argentina. His election as party leader was welcomed by Argentine president Cristina Kirchner who described him as a "great friend of Latin America".

pa nije podrzavao IRA kao teroristicku organizaciju.

sto se folklanda tice to je stvarno odvratan mali rat. britanija je doslovce okupirala ostrva u XIX veku i naselila svoje koloniste koji sada naravno zele da budu deo britanije. mislim jedina razlika izmedju folklanda i rodezije je sto na malvinima nema domicilnog stanovnistva. 

mislim britanija bi mogla ono makar da da argentini neke pare.


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The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:14 am

mislim i stav prema irskoj i prema malvinima se zasniva na projekciji sile i ukoliko je sila jedino sto priznajes nemoj da se iznenadis kad se pojavi veca i jaca. korbinov stav je stav doslednog internacionalizma i kompromisa - u jednom slucaju sa ljudima koje si pokorio i kolonizova a u drugom sa drzavom ciju si teritoriju doslovce oteo vojnom silom. i u oba slucaja druga strana nece to jednostavno kao da pusti vec zahteva da se to resi a ti pevas arije gilberta & salivana i tutnjis napred.


_____
The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:15 am

e sada ako ENGLEZI vole vicove o glupim ircima i hur dur rule the seas onda jebiga. moze im se ali mozda im se nece moci uvek.


_____
The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
паће

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Post by паће on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:33 am

Поданици једни. Како им желим 1 колективно добијање по пичци. Не толико физички или материјално, него да стекну скромност кроз понижење.


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  Чувајте се човека који се зове врата а продаје прозоре
  trash cans and trash can nots
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:24 am

Osnovna stvar koju mnogi u Engleskoj ne shvataju je odnos moci izmedju njih i velikog "brata" preko okeana. I to ce im ubrzo postati plasticno jasno, iako je vec do sada trebalo da im bude jasno onoliko.
Kondo

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Post by Kondo on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:29 am

zasto mislite da bi bilo koja vlada u americi uradila nesto protiv kakve god engleske? da ih potera sa malvina? OK irska mozda malo drugacije ali to ce ici u tom pravcu i bez njih.

mislim jedan vazan deo bregzita je amerikanizam u UK narocito kod mladjih leave glasaca koji direktno gledaju preko bare u biznis model


_____
Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
Zuper

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Post by Zuper on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:31 am

Propade Djejms Mazohista tipa 007.
Cuj ne znaju.
Znaju od 1956 kada su im Ameri i Rusi lupili samarcinu na Suezu.


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ZIVEO SLOBODNI BURUNDI!

egalite fraternite liberte
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:32 am

Zuper wrote:Propade Djejms Mazohista tipa 007.
Cuj ne znaju.
Znaju od 1956 kada su im Ameri i Rusi lupili samarcinu na Suezu.

znaju, ali ne znaju.
Indy

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Post by Indy on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:34 am

KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:37 am

Kondo wrote:zasto mislite da bi bilo koja vlada u americi uradila nesto protiv kakve god engleske? da ih potera sa malvina? OK irska mozda malo drugacije ali to ce ici u tom pravcu i bez njih.

mislim jedan vazan deo bregzita je amerikanizam u UK narocito kod mladjih leave glasaca koji direktno gledaju preko bare u biznis model

Irska nije u NATO-u. Potpuno bez obzira na to, kad je krenulo ovo oko S.Irske oko Brexita jasno su im stavili do znanja da se ne igraju. Amerika je ozbiljna kad je u pitanju severni Altlantik, Trump-ne Trump. Ne postoji nikakav njihov interes da im na tom prostou UK ne bude u jos podredjenijem polozaju nego sto je danas. Drugim recima, ako prica oko Skotske krene u pravcu otcepljenja najverovatnije nece prstom mrdnuti da tu nesto uticu u korist Londona. Skotska ce im biti jednako verna u toj grand scheme of things (koja je jedino bitna)
Kondo

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Post by Kondo on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:37 am

at Indy

to je više za topik Bugaraši

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Дакле, волео бих да се ЈСД Партизан угаси, али не и да сви (или било који) гробар умре.
Zuper

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Post by Zuper on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:43 am

KinderLad wrote:
Zuper wrote:Propade Djejms Mazohista tipa 007.
Cuj ne znaju.
Znaju od 1956 kada su im Ameri i Rusi lupili samarcinu na Suezu.

znaju, ali ne znaju.

Gledaj, englezu ce ameri biti blizi od kontinenta jer su ameri njihov klon i bivsa kolonija. To je lakse svarljivo.
Sa druge strane, na kontinentu nisu nikada najbolje prolazili pa su u svojoj najmocnijoj fazi placali druge da ratuju za njih.

Svi ti Bostoni i Jorkovi su originlano engleski, eno ih jos postoje.

Cak i Dzordzija, gde su vodili robijase iz engleske, je dobila ime po engleskom kralju.


_____
ZIVEO SLOBODNI BURUNDI!

egalite fraternite liberte
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:50 am

Zuper wrote:
KinderLad wrote:

znaju, ali ne znaju.

Gledaj, englezu ce ameri biti blizi od kontinenta jer su ameri njihov klon i bivsa kolonija. To je lakse svarljivo.
Sa druge strane, na kontinentu nisu nikada najbolje prolazili pa su u svojoj najmocnijoj fazi placali druge da ratuju za njih.

Svi ti Bostoni i Jorkovi su originlano engleski, eno ih jos postoje.

Cak i Dzordzija, gde su vodili robijase iz engleske, je dobila ime po engleskom kralju.

rekao sam odnos moci, ne identitetski. to su dve razlicite stvari, ali normalno je da srpskom rusofilu to nije jasno
KinderLad

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Post by KinderLad on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:03 pm

Mislim, da te malo "aboliram", nije to nista drugo nego jedna varijanta teorijskog bastarda koji je porodio S.Huntington, kao, neku sustinski "novu" teoriju IR-a. Ona je do kraja netacna, u svim svojim glavnim premisama se pokazala kao netacna iako je u brojnim pretpostavkama u jednom momentu izgledalo da "ima nesto" u njoj. I ona se sad u Srbiji posmatra kao nekakva vrhunska mudrost a daleko je od toga.
William Murderface

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Post by William Murderface on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:30 pm

Zuper wrote:
KinderLad wrote:

znaju, ali ne znaju.

Gledaj, englezu ce ameri biti blizi od kontinenta jer su ameri njihov klon i bivsa kolonija. To je lakse svarljivo.
Sa druge strane, na kontinentu nisu nikada najbolje prolazili pa su u svojoj najmocnijoj fazi placali druge da ratuju za njih.

Svi ti Bostoni i Jorkovi su originlano engleski, eno ih jos postoje.

Cak i Dzordzija, gde su vodili robijase iz engleske, je dobila ime po engleskom kralju.


Siri, what is The United States of America?


_____
"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
Zuper

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Post by Zuper on Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:52 pm

Ko je gospodjica siri?
Ako je neka pametna ondak da krenem sa pripremama,



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ZIVEO SLOBODNI BURUNDI!

egalite fraternite liberte
Gargantua

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Post by Gargantua on Thu Dec 19, 2019 3:22 pm

The end of Twentieth Century Labour
Peter Kellner

Three huge facts about Boris Johnson’s victory dwarf all others. The first is that the new Parliament will have a big majority for taking the United Kingdom out of the European Union. The second is that almost two million more people voted for parties that wanted to rethink Brexit than wanted it to go ahead next month. The third is that a huge structural change in the way people vote is transforming Britain’s political geography.

Let’s start with facts one and two. Across Britain, 52 per cent voted for one of the “rethink” parties — Labour, Lib Dem, Green, DNP and Plaid Cymru. Their total comfortably defeated the 47 per cent who supported the pro-Brexit parties: Conservative, Brexit Party and Ukip. The big difference is that the Tories had a near monopoly of the pro-Brexit vote in most seats, whereas the rethink vote was divided. Time and again, Remain seats elected Conservative MPs on minority votes. Putney was one of the very few seats where tactical voting overcame divisions in the anti-Brexit vote, and delivered the only Labour gain of the night.

Ten years ago, an election that precipitated a massive change in Britain’s future place in the world on a minority vote would have prompted angry demands for electoral reform. Perhaps such demands will now be revived. However, Nick Clegg screwed up in 2010 when he insisted on a referendum on a change in the way we elect our MPs as one of his main conditions for helping David Cameron to become Prime Minister. The referendum produced a two-to-one majority for the status quo. Regardless of the merits of changing the system following this election, it is not a politically feasible objective now, and won’t be for some time to come.

More urgent is the need for the Left to come to terms with the simultaneous failure of Labour and the Liberal Democrats. In my column for TheArticle on November 26, I presented startling data contrasting the swing of almost 20 per cent from Labour to Conservative among Leave voters since 2015, with the swing of almost 10 per cent to Labour among Remain voters. (That second swing had taken place by 2017 — there has been no further shift since the last election.) The signs that this contrast would defeat dozens of Labour MPs in the Midlands and North were clear. Seats that were ultra-safe in 2015 became vulnerable in 2017, and fell like ripe plums into the Tory lap this week.

However, it is wrong to put this all down to the way our national drama has unfolded since the 2016 referendum. Brexit has accelerated a massive change in voting behaviour, but not started it. Like studying a volcano, we should not be fooled by the spectacle of a sudden eruption: we must consider the way the pressure has built up over many years.

Until the mid-1980s, around 80 per cent of Labour’s support came from manual workers and their families. Just 20 per cent belonged to middle-class, white collar families. Since then, the proportion of working-class Labour voters has steadily declined, along with the transformation of Britain’s economy and the decline of the big industries, such as coal mines, shipyards, steelworks, car factories and so on.

When Tony Blair won his landslide, just 59 per cent of Labour’s support came from working class families; the middle-class component had doubled to 41 per cent. By 2010, white-collar Labour voters outnumbered blue-collar voters. When the numbers are finally crunched for this week’s election, they are likely to show a 60-40 split, with middle-class voters a clear majority.

To set out these figures is not necessarily to deplore the trend. Over the decades, Britain has become significantly more middle-class. A political strategy rooted in a twentieth century notion of class struggle is destined to fail. But when concerns of people with jobs that do not offer the security of the old, smokestack industries, are intensified by a decade of austerity, we should not be surprised when an issue comes along that brings these discontents to a head. Nor should we be surprised that the impact is greatest in precisely those parts of Britain where the economic changes and social dislocation of the past four decades have been greatest.

Labour must obviously now choose a new leader and policies to challenge the new, majority Government as it handles Brexit in the months ahead. This will not be at all easy. But the bigger, and far tougher, challenge is to construct a whole new strategy for a country and an electorate that has changed far more profoundly than the party. This week’s failure of the Lib Dems kills at birth any notion that they will be able to lead a resurgence of progressive politics in the months ahead.

Eric Hobsbawm, the historian, said that the “short twentieth century” ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. A good starting point for Labour would be to acknowledge that this week’s election should mark its own moment of fundamental transition, and finally bring to an end the party’s “long twentieth century”.

https://www.thearticle.com/the-end-of-twentieth-century-labour

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