EU - what's next?

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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by bruno sulak on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:55 pm

pa da ali to je zato sto je cdu u groko vec eto drugi mandat. mislim nije sve tako jednostavno. merkel je centrista zato sto je to volja vecinske nemacke. ideja da evro konzervativizam odjase u dobra stara vremena ce na scenu vratiti (i vec vraca) radikalnu levicu. ne da je to lose.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Quincy Endicott on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:00 pm

Vama komunistima stvarno treba odati priznanje na gotovo neverovatnom antropoloskom optimizmu...
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by bruno sulak on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:06 pm

pa ne preostaje nam nista drugo.

mislim da se tzv. ekstremisti (narocito desni) istorijski precenjuju. cela ta desna ludanska scena kombinuje kod tevtonaca otpor  ordoliberalizmu uz ksenofobiju. mislim da ce se to urusiti cim prosecni bavarac to shvati.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Ja nisam mislio na povratak radikalne levice

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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by bruno sulak on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:08 pm

pa ne nam da li si na to mislio ali to je verovatno poslednje sto ONI zele.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:09 pm

bruno sulak wrote:pa ne preostaje nam nista drugo.

mislim da se tzv. ekstremisti (narocito desni) istorijski precenjuju. cela ta desna ludanska scena kombinuje kod tevtonaca otpor  ordoliberalizmu uz ksenofobiju. mislim da ce se to urusiti cim prosecni bavarac to shvati.

Prosecan Bavarac mislim da "shvata" stvari kasnije i od prosecnog centralnodinarskogmasivca. Drugim recima shvatice ih kad mu necije trupe umarsiraju u Minhen

Ova kriza mora da se resava na drugi nacin da ne se ne bi zavrsila totalnom katastrofom.

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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:12 pm

bruno sulak wrote:pa ne nam da li si na to mislio ali to je verovatno poslednje sto ONI zele.

Ne bih se zakleo
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Quincy Endicott on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:12 pm

Zavrsice se naravno totalnom katastrofom i opet ce, kao i obicno, krivi biti Nemci.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Летећи Полип on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:21 pm

Ovog puta, rekao bih da ipak neće biti Nemci. Već pre waspovska braća preko bare...


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:23 pm

Летећи Полип wrote:Ovog puta, rekao bih da ipak neće biti Nemci. Već pre waspovska braća preko bare...

Videcemo, ali ne verujem. Tamo je ipak ime boga - novac. To ima svoje veoma lose, ali i dobre strane.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by bruno sulak on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:30 pm

KinderLad wrote:
bruno sulak wrote:pa ne nam da li si na to mislio ali to je verovatno poslednje sto ONI zele.

Ne bih se zakleo

kada kazem ONI ne mislim na ljude gustere vec na njihove glasace.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Летећи Полип on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:35 pm

Ma nema Evropa više ni oružja, ni demografiju da napravi neko sranje. Ona samo može da se fašizuje i izoluje od ostatka sveta. Ovi drugi pak imaju marince, nosače, bombardere i neprekinutu istoriju pobeda iza sebe. A i stanovništvo koje u svojoj istoriji nije trpelo nedaće rata, ni približno na nivou Evrope ili Bliskog istoka npr. Ti ima negde da se zalete i naprave sranje.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:54 pm

bruno sulak wrote:
KinderLad wrote:

Ne bih se zakleo

kada kazem ONI ne mislim na ljude gustere vec na njihove glasace.

Aha. Pa mozda, ali onda je pitanje sta ce sa tim "strahom" uraditi tj kako ce taj strah iskoristiti stranacke vodje populisticke desnice, da ne kazem fasista.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by KinderLad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:55 pm

Летећи Полип wrote:Ma nema Evropa više ni oružja, ni demografiju da napravi neko sranje. Ona samo može da se fašizuje i izoluje od ostatka sveta. Ovi drugi pak imaju marince, nosače, bombardere i neprekinutu istoriju pobeda iza sebe. A i stanovništvo koje u svojoj istoriji nije trpelo nedaće rata, ni približno na nivou Evrope ili Bliskog istoka npr. Ti ima negde da se zalete i naprave sranje.

Pa, sebicno gledano, i osim u slucaju nuklearnog rata to uopste nije najgore sto moze da se desi.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:02 am

After AfD - our turn!























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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Quincy Endicott on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:25 pm




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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Летећи Полип on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:28 pm

WTF!!!  


Pa šta može da se pita?


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Quincy Endicott on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm

ceo samit je WTF ali eto jebiga



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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by bruno sulak on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:36 pm

William Murderface wrote:After AfD - our turn!






















taman obnova i izgradnja


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Filipenko on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Hubert de Montmirail wrote:


Bar da su pustili nekog svog Informerovca da pita nešto, fore radi   Ionako se dozvoljavaju po 2-3 pitanja.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by William Murderface on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:52 pm

Hubert de Montmirail wrote:

Worst Kraftwerk gig ever.


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Quincy Endicott on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:16 am



ova bista deluje veoma realistično


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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Filipenko on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:34 am

Nadam se da će joj se golubovi israti po glavi.
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Gargamel on Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:53 am

William Murderface wrote:After AfD - our turn!
A plan so cunning...
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Re: EU - what's next?

Post by Gargantua on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:14 am

evo krasteva ovde


https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/10/3-versions-of-europe-are-collapsing-at-the-same-time/

3 Versions of Europe Are Collapsing at the Same Time


Post-1945, post-1968, and post-1989 Europe are all different — and none of them make sense anymore.
By Ivan Krastev | July 10, 2018, 1:00 PM


Is Europe failing? There is plenty of evidence to suggest so, from the constant bickering over NATO contributions, to the proliferation of half-baked deals to regulate migration, to the growing signs of authoritarianism in Eastern Europe.

Yes, Europe has repeatedly failed over the past 70 years, and those failures have been the building blocks of Europe’s success. But things are different today. Today’s noise isn’t simply another invitation for Europe to fail upward again. It’s the sound of Europe threatening to fall apart entirely.

Three different versions of Europe constitute the one that we know today: the postwar Europe after 1945, the post-1968 Europe of human rights, and then the united Europe that emerged after the end of the Cold War. All three Europes are now cast into doubt.

Take postwar Europe, which is the original foundation of the European project. This is the Europe that remembers the horrors and destruction of World War II, the Europe that once lived in constant fear of, and determination to prevent, the next war — a nuclear one — which would be the last war. The blind spots of postwar Europe first came into view in the 1990s, when Yugoslavia descending into chaos, despite the prevalent belief that a major war was no longer possible on the continent.

Postwar Europe is failing today because, for the younger generations, World War II is ancient history. Francis Fukuyama was right: We are at the end of history, when the past doesn’t matter anymore to the present. At best, Europe’s younger generations have passively absorbed the lessons of history while failing to think historically. In the internet age, the state has also lost much of its monopoly on civic education; one of the paradoxes of the revolution in communication technologies is that, while the young generation communicates much more intensively than any previous generation, they talk predominantly to their peers. Constant chatting is of no help when it comes to transferring the experience of previous generations.

Two other factors undermine the cementing power of the memories of WWII in Europe today. First, the generation of survivors is already gone, and second, for most of the refugees and migrants who come to European societies from outside the continent, World War II is not their war. When referring to “war,” Syrian refugees mean the destruction of Aleppo and not the destruction of Warsaw or Dresden.

Postwar Europe is also failing because the majority of Europeans continue to take peace for granted while the world is turning into a dangerous place and the United States can no longer be assumed to be interested in protecting Europe. Brussels’ insistence that what matters is soft power while military might is obsolete is starting to ring false even to those making the claim. In that way, Europe’s postwar thinking has become its vulnerability, rather than an advantage. Postwar Europe today does no longer mean Europe as a peaceful power, it means a Europe that is unable to defend itself. (Grasping this new reality is going to be particularly painful for Germany.)

But there’s another Europe that is failing: Europe as a post-1968 project — the Europe of human rights and particularly the Europe of minority rights. The powerful impact of 1968 on the European mind is defined by the widely drawn conclusion, amid that year’s unrest and revolutions, that the state is something that defends citizens but also threatens them. The incredible achievement of the 68ers was that they made Europeans perceive the state with the eyes of the most vulnerable and persecuted groups in their societies. This revolutionary turn in the way Europeans felt about the world and their role in it was largely the result of the process of decolonization but also of the global expansion of the democratic imagination. If post-1968 Europe would be defined by one word, it is inclusion.

But this post-1968 Europe is also in question today. The dramatic demographic and social changes that transformed European societies in recent decades threatened majorities — those who have everything and who therefore fear everything, who make up the major force in European politics. Threatened majorities now express a genuine fear that they are becoming the losers of globalization and particularly the losers of the intensified movement of people that accompanied it. The defining characteristic of the politics of threatened majorities is that when they vote, they do it imagining a future where they will be a minority group in their own countries, where their culture and lifestyles will henceforth be endangered. It would be a major political mistake if liberals simply ignore or ridicule these fears. In democratic politics, perceptions are the only reality that matters.

Many of the political movements that are gaining popularity today are very much about the rights of the majorities and particularly their cultural rights. Majorities insist that they have the right to decide who belongs to the political community and to protect their own majoritarian culture. In this regard, the 2015 immigration crisis was a turning point in the way European publics viewed globalization. It marked both the end of post-1968 Europe and the failure of a certain idea of post-1989 Europe, as we are witnessing a once unifying consensus falling apart. It is symptomatic that while surveys indicate that members of the younger generation across Europe are much more tolerant when it comes to the rights of sexual minorities, there is no significant difference between generations when it comes to the perception of non-European migrants as a threat.

The refugee crisis was Europe’s 9/11. In the way 9/11 pushed Americans to change the lens through which they see the world America has made, the migration crisis forced Europeans to question some of the critical assumptions of their previous attitudes toward globalization.

The migration crisis also led to questioning of the reality of a unified post-1989 Europe, not simply because Europe’s west and east took very different positions when it comes to what they owe other people in the context of the refugee crisis, but because it revealed the existence of two very different Europes when it comes to ethnic and cultural diversity, and questions of migration.

One irony of history is that, while in the beginning of 20th century Central and Eastern Europe was the most diverse part of the continent, now it is extremely ethnically homogeneous. Meanwhile, while today’s Western Europe is preoccupied by questions about how to integrate the growing number of foreigners living in their countries, many of them coming from culturally very different societies, Central Europeans are preoccupied with the challenge of reversing the trend of young Central Europeans leaving for life in the West. While the West struggles to deal with diversity, the East struggles to deal with depopulation. To imagine the scale of the problem, it helps to consider some figures. In the period from 1989 to 2017, Latvia hemorrhaged 27 percent of its population, Lithuania 23 percent, and Bulgaria 21 percent. The combination of an aging population, low birth rates, and an unending flow of out-migration is the ultimate source of demographic panic in Central and Eastern Europe, even though it is expressed politically through hysteria against the refugees, who are nowhere to be seen in the region. In reality, more Eastern Europeans left their countries for Western Europe as a result of the 2008 financial crisis than all the refugees that arrived as the result of the war in Syria.

Ultimately, however, what’s at the heart of Central European illiberalism’s rise isn’t differences over migration but a rejection of what I call the Imitation Imperative.

For two decades after 1989, the political philosophy of post-communist Central and Eastern Europe could be summarized in a single imperative: Imitate the West! The process was called by different names — democratization, liberalization, enlargement, convergence, integration, Europeanization — but the goal pursued by post-communist reformers was simple: They wished their countries to become like the West. This involved importing liberal-democratic institutions, applying Western political and economic recipes, and publicly endorsing Western values. Imitation was widely understood to be the shortest pathway to freedom and prosperity.

Europe was no longer divided between communists and democrats. It was divided between imitators and imitated. But pursuing economic and political reform by imitating a foreign model has more moral and psychological downsides than many originally expected. The imitator’s life inescapably mixes feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, dependency, lost identity, and involuntary insincerity. Imitators are never happy people. They never own their successes — they only own their failures.

The first Europe, postwar Europe, is failing because memory of the war is fading and because it has contributed to a Europe incapable of defending itself. The second Europe, post-1968 Europe, is failing because it was the Europe of minorities; it’s still trying to find a way to address majorities’ demand that their cultural rights should be protected, too, without turning democracy into instruments of exclusion. Post-1989 Europe is failing because Eastern Europeans no longer want to imitate the West and be judged by the West but rather want to build a counter-model.

Do Europe’s failures mean that Europe is irrevocably falling apart? Fatalism would be a mistake. It does mean that Europe should invest in its military capabilities and stop taking America’s security guarantees for granted. It also means that, in the same way European liberal democracies in 1970s and 1980s succeed at deradicalizing the far-left and integrating some of its legitimate demands in the mainstream, it should do the same with the far-right. People who today are scared by some of the radical ideas coming from the far-right should remember that many centrists of the 1970s regarded Germany’s anti-establishment leftists such as Joschka Fischer — later to become Germany’s foreign minister — as a threat to the capitalist, democratic West. And when it comes to West-East relations in Europe, the challenge is to find a way to strongly criticize the authoritarian turn in the East without insisting that imitating the West is the only meaning of democracy or naively imagining that a commitment to democracy can be bought with cohesion funds from Brussels.

Seventy years ago, Europe managed miraculously to turn the destruction of World War II into the foundation of its peace project. It succeeded at turning the anti-establishment anger of 1968 into political progress. It succeeded in less than two decades at uniting a Europe divided by 50 years of Cold War. If Europe has managed to turn so many failures into success, one can certainly hope that it will achieve the same miracle again today.

Re: EU - what's next?

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