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Post by Guest on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:13 pm

Santino wrote:
Arkady Ivanovich wrote:

endeove knjige su blago za hp

+milion, bas sam hteo "beskrajnu pricu" da navedem kao primer knjige u kojoj sam uzivao kao odrasla nacitana osoba.


to, i isto mogu reci za momo
Santino

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Post by Santino on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:17 pm

evo dacu jedan grozan primer. na primer, sta bismo pomislili kad bi neko u igranom filmu realisticno i veoma detaljno prikazao eksperimente nad ljudima u logorima smrti? koji umetnicki ciljevi opravdavaju takvu scenu? gde je granica?


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Post by Guest on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 pm

meni bi to bio nazi exploitation tres, nikako umetnicki film.
Santino

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Post by Santino on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:27 pm

pa to se ja pitam, gde je tu granica.


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Anđe'o

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Post by Anđe'o on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:55 pm

Sad ima filmova kao Son of Saul koji mnogo realnije prikazuju konc logore.
No Country

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Post by No Country on Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:02 am

Santino wrote:pa to se ja pitam, gde je tu granica.
Не постоји ту никаква граница, или је нешто део целине уметничког дела, или није. Општи морал је not applicable.
William Murderface

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Post by William Murderface on Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:39 am

No Country wrote:
Santino wrote:pa to se ja pitam, gde je tu granica.
Не постоји ту никаква граница, или је нешто део целине уметничког дела, или није. Општи морал је not applicable.


+1


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
Santino

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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:47 am

da, u pravu ste.


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bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:49 am

I realised that cinema oscillated most of the time between those two poles. Even with more substantial directors than Pontecorvo, I often stumbled onto this smuggler’s way of adding an extra parasitic beauty or complicit information to scenes that did not need it. The wind that blows back, like a shroud, the white parachute over a dead soldier’s body in Fuller’s Merrill’s Marauders troubled me for years. Less though than Ana Magnani’s revealing skirt after she is shot dead in Rome Open City. Rossellini too was hitting “below the belt”, but in such a new way that it would take years to understand towards which abyss it was taking us. When is the event over? Where is the cruelty? Where does obscenity begin and where does pornography end? I knew these were questions constitutive of cinema “after the camps”. And for myself, because I was the same age, I began to call this cinema “modern”.
http://sensesofcinema.com/2004/feature-articles/kapo_daney/

serge daney tracking shot in kapo


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The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:49 pm

evo cega sam se jos setio. ako se film o holokaustu fokusira na poruku nade i na one koji su preziveli kao u SL, bekstvu iz sobibora i La vita e' bella, to je lazan film jer su pobijeni gotovo svi koji su u usli u logor smrti. s druge strane, ako se film fokusira na realnost u njemu ne moze da ostane nista drugo osim potpunog, apsolutnog ocajanja. apsolutno ocajanje i umetnost?


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Santino

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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:01 pm

uh kakav tekst, hvala ostape. slicna pitanja su me mucila ovih dana.


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beatakeshi

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Post by beatakeshi on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:05 pm

Ima jedan naš interesantan sa logoraškom tematikom: "Hranjenik" (1970) Vatroslava Mimice.
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:24 pm

e meni hranjenik je bas neuspeo film o holokaustu. to je sasvim pristojan film ali zapravo funkcionise kao drama ili triler.


_____
The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
beatakeshi

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Post by beatakeshi on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:29 pm

Da, nije film o holokaustu.
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:31 pm

mislim to jeste film o logoru ali taj logor moze biti i goli otok i djavolje ostrvo i kp zenica.


_____
The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
bruno sulak

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Post by bruno sulak on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:33 pm

son of saul je s druge strane film koji je prava tragedija, u klasicnom smislu te reci. neverovatan film. btw, ida je film o holokaustu koji uspeva da izbegne estetizaciju samog dogadjaja.


_____
The law provides us structure to guide us through paralyzing and trying times. But it requires us a vision to its procedures and higher purposes. Before we assume our respective roles in this enduring drama just let me say that when these frail shadows we inhabit now have quit the stage we'll meet and raise a glass again together in Valhalla.
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Post by Guest on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:37 pm

ovaj je film dobar, s tim da prica o poricanju odgovornosti direktnih ucesnika mucenja i ubistava u novom sadu za vreme racije, dok cekaju sudjenje. "samo sam radio svoj posao" 

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William Murderface

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Post by William Murderface on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:47 pm

Hvala na preporuci, pogledacu obavezno.


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"Oni kroz mene gledaju u vas! Oni kroz njega gledaju u vas! Oni kroz vas gledaju u mene... i u sve nas."

Dragoslav Bokan, Novi putevi oftalmologije
Santino

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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:03 pm

ostap bender wrote:son of saul je s druge strane film koji je prava tragedija, u klasicnom smislu te reci. neverovatan film. 

ali ni on ne izbegava nadu i malu, kakvu-takvu pobedu zivota na kraju, osmeh kad vidi ono poljsko dete.


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Anđe'o

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Post by Anđe'o on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:03 pm

ostap bender wrote:son of saul je s druge strane film koji je prava tragedija, u klasicnom smislu te reci. neverovatan film. btw, ida je film o holokaustu koji uspeva da izbegne estetizaciju samog dogadjaja.

I dobija Oskara. Schindler's List - Page 4 1143415371


Meni je zanimljivo, u vezi ovoga što je Santino pitao, što ubedljivo najjezivija scena u Son of Saul je scena gde se u stvari ne vidi ništa strašno. Ta scena je urađena sjajno.
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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:30 pm

u son of saul bese nema muzike?

ali pazi sad ovo- sama ideja muzike u scenama gde ljude ubijaju ili vode u smrt je neka vrsta perverzije. estetizacija genocida i pravljenje spektakla od toga, tu nesto djavolski nije u redu. dajem primer posto nam je blizi, moze li bilo ko da zamisli spektakl "Srebrenica" ili muziku za scenu kad skorpioni vrse egzekuciju i da to bude umetnost? zar eksplicitno prikazivanje necega sto ne mora biti prikazano nije neka vrsta okrutnosti?


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dr. Labrador Špegelj

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Post by dr. Labrador Špegelj on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:35 pm



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Santino

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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:42 pm

imao sam isti problem sa tim filmom.


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Anđe'o

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Post by Anđe'o on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:54 pm

Santino wrote:u son of saul bese nema muzike?

ali pazi sad ovo- sama ideja muzike u scenama gde ljude ubijaju ili vode u smrt je neka vrsta perverzije. estetizacija genocida i pravljenje spektakla od toga, tu nesto djavolski nije u redu. dajem primer posto nam je blizi, moze li bilo ko da zamisli spektakl "Srebrenica" ili muziku za scenu kad skorpioni vrse egzekuciju i da to bude umetnost? zar eksplicitno prikazivanje necega sto ne mora biti prikazano nije neka vrsta okrutnosti?


Ne bih beš pravio zakone i formule. Pustiti muziku u filmu nije nikakva ideja, to je legitimno filmsko sredstvo i njegova opravdanost/neopravdanost se pojavljuje samo na nivou pojedinačnog filma.

Mislim da nema muzike u SoS, mada nisam siguran.
Santino

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Post by Santino on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:00 pm

znam, znam, ali mislim da nisi ulovio moju glavnu ideju:

estetizacija genocida i pravljenje spektakla od toga, tu nesto djavolski nije u redu
 
o pojedinacnim filmovima i govorim, onima koji se bave holokaustom i slicnim temama. naravno da nisam protiv muzike kao takve.


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