Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:51 pm

FCB

In the wake of the events that have transpired in recent days and, especially, today, with regard to the current political situation in Catalonia, FC Barcelona, in remaining faithful to its historic commitment to the defense of the nation, to democracy, to freedom of speech, and to self-determination, condemns any act that may impede the free exercise of these rights.

Therefore, FC Barcelona publicly expresses its support for all people, entities, and institutions that work to guarantee these rights.

FC Barcelona, in holding the utmost respect for its diverse body of members, will continue to support the will of the majority of Catalan people, and will do so in a civil, peaceful, and exemplary way.
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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by diktotar on Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:22 am

zivela slobodna katalonija


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:53 am





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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Kinder Lad on Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:00 am



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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:02 am

Dovode policiju spolja, ne znam da li to znači da je lokalna policija odbila da izvrši naređenja?


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:03 am

U svakom slučaju, ovo ubrzava stvari i polarizuje političku scenu. Katalonci na okup a u ostatku Španije jačanje ekstremne desnice.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Kinder Lad on Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:13 am

Ma znam bre, mislim nije mi problem da sve posmatram suvo politicki, ali jednostavno mrzim kad nerazum prevlada, a prevladao je na obe strane. Odnosno, prevladao je sitan racun politicara na obe strane. Katalonci vladaju Katalonijom, kontrolisu sve tokove novca - banke, najvece firme, jedino sto im sustinski treba je potpuna finansijska autonomija. Spanija s druge strane ovo igra skroz na silu. I mozda im i uspe s obzirom na to ko su i sta su i gde su, ali sa svejedno teskim posledicama, a verovatno i dugotrajnim. Jednostavno - adio pameti. A moze i dublje da se analizira, al 2 ujutru je


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by  on Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:41 am

Guardian wrote:The raids signal a significant escalation of Madrid’s efforts to stop the vote from proceeding – as do remarks from the Spanish foreign minister, who has accused some separatists of using a “Nazi” approach to intimidate Catalan mayors opposed to secession.

“Referendums are a weapon of choice of dictators,” said Alfonso Dastis in an interview with Bloomberg in New York on Tuesday. “These people actually are taking some Nazi attitudes because they are putting up posters with the faces of mayors who are resisting their call to participate in this charade.

“A referendum isn’t the same as a democracy. Gen Franco organised two referendums.”



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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:45 am

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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:02 am

Pregled jučerašnjeg dana, sa pro-ref sajta:


https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/a-day-that-will-last-for-years-to-come-independence-is-in-the-streets-already-independence-referendum/

A day that will last for years to come; independence is in the streets already

A report on the revolt against Spain’s bid to stage a coup, raiding Catalan ministry HQs and arresting senior government officials

Per: Pere Cardús
21.09.2017  07:51


The alarm bells went off early in the morning, when nearly everyone was on their way to work, school or the day’s meetings. They had entered the Finance Ministry. They had arrested a number of senior government officials. The information available was confusing, but you could tell they meant business. Slowly, details trickled in. They had searched the offices of the Treasury’s Deputy Minister, Lluís Salvadó, and the Deputy Finance Minister, Pere Aragonès. The name of Josep Maria Jové, Vice President Junqueras’ right-hand man, came up as one of the people supposedly under arrest. Pro-independence grassroots groups called on Catalans to take to the streets. Quite a crowd gathered outside the ministry’s offices, on Barcelona’s Rambla de Catalunya.

Searches and arrests early in the morning

Fresh information circulated: they had also raided the offices of the CTTI (the government’s IT centre), the Foreign Affairs Ministry, T-Systems (a private company) and so forth. President Puigdemont held an urgent cabinet meeting in Palau de la Generalitat. Some demonstrators cut off Via Laietana. Following a call by Jordi Sànchez, the leader of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), others followed suit on Gran Via de les Corts Catalanes. The Speaker of the House, Carme Forcadell, was waiting in parliament to take any important decisions, if at all necessary. It was important to keep a cool head in the face of such an onslaught. Online and among those demonstrating in the streets, a phrase was coined: a coup against democracy and the Generalitat.

“No passaran!”

Calls to rally were successful and the Rambla de Catalunya junction with Gran Via filled with a crowd that was not willing to abide by the coup. Thousands of citizens waving “estelades” and holding all sorts of posters and banners demanding democracy … it is packed to the brim. The atmosphere is electric. Protestors are rallying emphatically, led by leaders of culture, politics and thought. One of the most popular chants is “No passaran!” [coined by the republican side during the 1936-39 war]. They say that Jové and two other people from the Finance Ministry, who have also been arrested, are not in the building; apparently they have been apprehended elsewhere and they want to bring them to their offices for a search. That is what the judge that authorised the coup has ordered.

“Where’s Europe?”

On that information, the crowd has made up its mind: “We won’t let them through and they won’t be able to leave”. Every now and then, the Ministry’s front door opens to let an employee in or out. Deafening shouts fill the air and it is almost impossible to breathe. The noise is ear-splitting. Not even twenty seconds go by before someone starts singing, shouts out a slogan or some song roars in our ears. “Where is Coscubiela?” [a unionist MP] proves particularly popular. Albano-Dante Fachin [Coscubiela’s in-party rival], who got here early on, does not even bother to conceal his laughter. MEP Ramon Tremosa joins the crowd shouting “Where’s Europe?”. They also sing L’Estaca, by Lluís Llach, and some oldies by Companyia Elèctrica Dharma.

Spanish police don’t look amused

Demonstrators don’t take a moment’s break. They are willing to make a stand because their resolve is complete: “enough is enough, we won’t accept any more attacks”. Catalan police form a line in front of the Spanish gendarmes guarding the front door. The message is clear: it is the Mossos who protect government buildings and are in charge of security in the streets of Catalonia. White and red carnations are tossed over the line of Mossos and land on the berets of the Guardia Civil officers, clad in their green uniforms. The raiders of our institutions do not look amused. A handful of men trained to hunt down dangerous felons and jihadists are standing guard in front of people who offer them flowers, smile at them and sing them songs. But they must take it with a straight face. They are making fools of themselves in the name of a country that will stop at nothing.

The revolution is broad-based

Some barristers from the bar association turn up in their gowns to support the ministry’s employees. Today a coup is underway. A foreign government is attempting to replace the rightful government elected by the Catalan people. They wish to take over our institutions and suspend our self-rule, without the parliament’s intervention. By using police force. Lawyers, politicians, artists, intellectuals, teachers, students and other people are standing up to the aggression today. As with any other revolution before.

“We will vote, we will vote!”

Resolve, civility, character and hope: the crowd chants “We will vote, we will vote!”. And “Ballot boxes are our weapons”, while an oversize ballot box is passed around above the people’s heads, bearing a phrase written in English: “Spain, this is your problem”. There is no going back. Madrid has spat on democracy and Catalonia’s institutions. And this is the last straw. Those who have gathered to defend our institutions and democracy are fully committed. They aren’t going away. It’ll be a long day. Decisions will need to be made. Good information is key.

“The government won’t back down”

While Rambla de Catalunya is becoming ever more packed, President Puigdemont addresses media with an official statement on behalf of his government: “A firm but calm attitude will be required from today until October 1, the day of the referendum. On October 1 we will leave home, carrying a ballot paper and we will use it. And this must contrast with Madrid’s authoritarianism”. In the streets, Puigdemont’s words can barely be heard. Overloaded phone networks make communication difficult. But anyone with a radio shares the news and people clap.

We condemn the totalitarian attitude of the Spanish State. We support, personally and politically, all the government officials who are under arrest and stand by them. We denounce the illegitimate takeover of the Catalan government. We reiterate our peaceful, democratic response to the threats. We believe that the Spanish government has crossed a red line”, says the President, and he goes on: “We do not accept going back to past eras, and cannot accept that they won’t allow us to decide about a future era of freedom and democracy”. Finally, he stresses that “this government will not back down”. The President’s determination is met with a show of confidence, even by those who have been most lukewarm about the alliance with the PDECat. For instance, activist Pau Llonch praised the President’s message on Twitter.

A new warning at the CUP’s HQ

Today we learnt that the Spanish police meant to raid the CUP’s HQ, too. Some officers wearing balaclavas surrounded the largest venue run by the radical pro-independence left on Carrer Casp. A call is made to defend the venue being threatened. It spreads like wildfire and, shortly afterwards, thousands have gathered in a show of peaceful resistance.

Spreading protests

In the meantime, college students across Catalonia have cancelled their lessons to protest over the violation of the Catalan people’s rights and liberties. All over Catalonia, people are getting organised to travel to Barcelona city and defend our institutions. The main grassroots groups set up rallies for the evening. With every minute, more people are taking to the streets in Barcelona. There are marches in the main towns and villages of the Catalan Countries and abroad, too. Even Madrid will be holding a protest in Puerta del Sol

To the detainees: “You are not alone”

About fifteen people have been arrested. Most of them are senior government officials. In their capacity, they might have aided in holding the referendum. On the street, people’s shouts in their support bounce off the façade of the building. The crowd cries out: “You are not alone”, as they remain determined and joyful. There are rumours of further arrests that turn out to be unfounded. Some newspapers jump at the chance of getting a few extra clicks, but eventually have to rectify. There are further rumours about statements from European leaders. But it is late in the afternoon and nobody in Europe has uttered a word yet. For now, only MEPS across the political spectrum and some foreign political parties have protested. Concern over the Spanish government’s heavy-handed approach is growing all over Europe.

“A de facto state of exception”

At 4 pm Carme Forcadell turns up to read a statement before the media. The Speaker of the House insists on the people’s peaceful, democratic response: “We will stand together in the face of these attacks, we will defend our institutions and stay united. The best solution is to fill the ballot boxes on October 1.” Forcadell firmly denounces the events of the last few days: “A de facto state of exception has been declared”.

Only the people can save the people

The largest crowd is still gathered outside the Finance Ministry. The minister and Vice President Oriol Junqueras makes an appearance. He is emotional, but determined to used the support lent by the majority of the Catalan people. He speaks to the crowd at the top of his voice: “Our institutions watch over the rights of our citizens. Make no mistake: only the people can save the people. And the future of this nation is in the hands of all of us. We will stay together to ensure that freedom, truth and democracy prevail”.

More support, more voices against authoritarianism

Protests can be heard across the Catalan nation. In the Valencian Country and the Balearic Islands, rallies are growing in size. All fourteen bar associations release a forceful statement against the violation of basic civil rights and liberties. Barcelona FC sides with the institutions and the people who wish to exercise their right to self-determination. Prominent thinkers in Europe lend their support.

In the evening, the Revolution of Smiles

At 8 pm, the crowd gathered all day at the Rambla de Catalunya junction with Gran Via has grown even larger. As if it were Catalonia’s National Holiday again, the crowd stretches from Plaça de Catalunya to carrer de la Diputació, and from carrer Balmes to Diagonal. Catalans have travelled to Barcelona from all four corners and have taken over the city centre. The Revolution of smiles has exploded in all its splendour.

These have been days of struggle, solidarity, joy and songs. But, above all, a profound conviction has emerged today: the conviction that leads to victory. Today is the day. Today might be the day.
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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:08 am

El Pais, kontra-ref



https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/20/inenglish/1505917320_788824.html

The lies of the Catalan regional premier
In a democracy, leaders cannot tell untruths with impunity

21 SEP 2017 - 08:29 CEST


After learning about the searches and arrests made on Wednesday morning by the Civil Guard at various Catalan government agencies, regional premier Carles Puigdemont called a news conference to convey his position to the public opinion and the media. The gravity, but above all the falseness of the accusations that he made, now force us to debunk them one by one, for the sake of rigor and freedom of information. We believe it to be a basic tenet of democracy that public authorities cannot lie to citizens with impunity.

1. “The government of the Generalitat has today been the target of a coordinated aggression by the Interior Ministry’s police forces.” False: the searches and arrests conducted on Wednesday inside various government agencies were carried out by the Civil Guard, not on the orders of the Interior Ministry or of the Prosecutor’s Office – rather, it was on the order of the judge at Barcelona’s 13th investigative court, as a result of legal proceedings that began a long time ago. As such, the Civil Guard acted in its role of “judicial police.”

2. The goal of the operation was to “suspend the activities of the (Catalan) government,” a government that holds “democratic legitimacy.” False. The Catalan government’s activities in all areas where it has devolved powers by virtue of the regional charter, the Estatut (education, health and so on), have not been suspended. The Catalan government has no power to organize a secessionist referendum and it knows this; the Constitutional Court has informed it of this fact. So there has been no suspension of the Catalan government’s activities. On the other hand, while it is true that the Catalan government was appointed by a majority of the deputies who were elected at the regional election of September 27, 2015, this kind of legitimacy (which does not even represent a majority of the people who voted that day) does not give them a mandate to repeal the Estatut or to organize activities that violate the law, as the Constitutional Court has also reminded the Govern. What defines a democracy is not the existence of majorities – all political regimes have them – but rather the fact that democracies cannot disobey the law with impunity.

The Catalan government has no power to organize a secessionist referendum and it knows this

3. “This aggression lacks legal backing,” it “violates the rule of law” and the European Charter of Rights, and is “a de facto suspension of self-government and a de facto application of a state of exception.” It is all false. The police intervention not only took place under the aegis of the judiciary, it was in fact ordered by the latter and has the backing of the Constitutional Court. It therefore falls within the boundaries of the rule of law, of which the independence of the judiciary is a basic pillar (in contrast with the aim of the breakaway laws that were dictated by the secessionist bloc and later suspended by the courts). Nor can one say that Catalan home rule has been suspended, since nobody has invoked Section 155 of the Constitution, which would allow central authorities to temporarily intervene in Catalonia’s affairs. What’s not been applied is the National Security Law, which would allow the government to take over all law enforcement agencies. There is no state of exception, because not a single civil right has been suspended, as shown by the freely exercised freedom of demonstration on the streets of Barcelona to protest acts ordered by the judiciary.

4. Various acts including “indiscriminate raids, even inside private homes” and other measures such as “the closure and blocking of websites” represent “an assault on democracy.” False: the searches on Wednesday were not indiscriminate, they were individualized as part of the judicial police’s operation. And it was the prosecutor’s office, following the Constitutional Court’s resolutions, that ordered the closure of a website that aimed to apply a law (passed on September 6 to facilitate the referendum) that had already been suspended by the Constitutional Court; the website provided details about the illegal ballot and instructions on how to carry it out.

5. “We condemn and reject the totalitarian and antidemocratic attitude of the Spanish State” and after its actions “we consider that the (central) government has crossed the red line separating it from authoritarian and repressive regimes” and that “it doesn’t respect the chief elements of democracy.” This accusation is not new. Carles Puigdemont has previously argued that, politically speaking, Spain is like Turkey. But the reverse is the case: Puigdemont is, like Erdogan, the one who is shielding himself behind the majority, ignoring the separation of powers and breaking the law, violating the Constitution and the Estatut and using the institutions to push forward an illegal referendum without guarantees. Spain, a member of the European Union, is recognized as a democracy by all the relevant international organizations.

The announcement of the ballot is the culmination of a project to repeal constitutional democracy

6. “We citizens have been called to the polls on October 1 to defend democracy in the face of a repressive and intimidating regime.” False: the announcement of the ballot is not about defending democracy, but rather about the culmination of a project to repeal constitutional democracy, to repeal the charter of self-government; and to cause the fragmentation of the Spanish rule of law, as embodied in the suspended breakaway laws paving the way for a referendum and for the transition to an independent republic, which were approved in the regional Catalan parliament on September 6 and September 8, 2017 inside a chamber that was half empty as most opposition deputies walked out in protest against the fact that their parliamentary rights were being denied. Intimidation has been carried out by secessionist groups, among them the radical left-wing CUP party, which has put up posters with photos of Catalan mayors and councilors who are in favor of compliance with democratic law.

7. “We are defending the right of Catalans to freely decide their future” The assumption that Catalans currently cannot decide their future in free elections is false: they have participated in 35 fully democratic elections since 1977 (at the local, regional, national and European levels) and in three referendums (the ratification of the Spanish Constitution and, on two occasions, of the Catalan Estatut); they enjoy self-government; and the region’s parties are fully present inside the Spanish Congress and Senate (and in the European Parliament, as Spaniards), as well as in many other public institutions.

8. “What is happening in Catalonia isn’t happening anywhere else in the European Union” This is the only assertion by Puigdemont that is actually accurate. Unfortunately, in the European Union we have nationalist leaders in both Hungary and Poland who want to put an end to the separation of powers and revoke the systems of laws and liberties currently in force. Luckily, as is also the case with Catalonia, this type of behavior has no place in the EU.
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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by ostap bender on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:28 am

jedni i drugi se igraju vatrom.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Mr.Pink on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:07 am

sloba se iz groba grohotno smeje


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:38 pm

Catalans for Yes‏ @CatalansForYes  4 hours ago
BREAKING: Spanish Ministry of Finance blocks all bank accounts of the Catalan government.

Nicola Sturgeon has backed the right of the Catalan government to hold an independence referendum as she spoke of her concern over attempts to stop it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41350999

Vargas Llosa: “My hope is that the government has enough energy to prevent a coup”
The Nobel Prize winner says that the planned Catalan referendum is “illegal, anachronistic and absurd”
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/21/inenglish/1505994364_414516.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM_EN

Spain’s main political parties, the governing Popular Party (PP) and opposition Socialist Party (PSOE), are willing to begin talks with pro-independence forces in Catalonia, provided that the latter abandon their plans for an illegal referendum on October 1, or indeed after the said date has passed.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/21/inenglish/1505995524_080986.html
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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by ostap bender on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:41 pm

ljosa uporno na strani frankizma.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:31 pm


https://www.ft.com/content/393cc798-9ed4-11e7-8cd4-932067fbf946

Catalan separatist supporters step up protests against Madrid

48 MINUTES AGO by Michael Stothard in Barcelona


Thousands of Catalan separatists stepped up protests against the Spanish state on Thursday after a police swoop on regional officials deepened Catalonia’s power struggle with Madrid over a planned independence referendum.

Pro-independence supporters on the streets of Barcelona were exhorted to prepare for a protracted battle against the Spanish government, which wants to stop Catalonia’s regional administration holding the vote on October 1.

Carles Puigdemont, the president of the pro-independence Catalan regional government, joined protesters outside the economy ministry, where a crowd shouted “We are not afraid” and “It does not bite, it’s a ballot box”.

National police on Wednesday arrested a dozen Catalan officials and seized ballot papers prepared for the vote. The Madrid government, backed by the constitutional court, says the Catalan attempt to hold a referendum is illegal and that any officials attempting to organise the poll are liable to be prosecuted.

Jordi Sanchez, president of the Catalan National Assembly, a civic campaign group, told the crowd on Thursday: “We will be here, peacefully but present, until all of the arrested walk free.”

The attempt by Mr Puigdemont’s administration to organise an independence vote is presenting the national government of prime minister Mariano Rajoy with one of the country’s most serious constitutional tests since democracy was restored in the 1970s.

In a sign of the plans being made by the Madrid government, the interior ministry rented dock space for a ferry in the port of Barcelona to provide logistical support for Spanish police, who are set to have a strong presence on the streets of the city over the coming days.

The Rhapsody ferry can hold more than 2,448 people and 716 vehicles, according to its website. El Correo newspaper reported that the government was aiming to amass more than 16,000 police and other security officers in the city to stop the referendum.

Oriol Junqueras, the deputy premier of Catalonia and regional economy minister, said on Thursday that holding a vote would be more difficult after Wednesday’s raid. “The circumstances are different today. Half of the team at the [regional] economy department has been arrested,” he said.

In an interview with regional radio station RAC1, Jordi Turull, the Catalan government spokesperson, said the regional government remained determined to hold the referendum despite Madrid’s pressure.

Barcelona’s superior court said in a statement on Wednesday that Spanish police, acting on a judge’s orders, searched 42 premises, including six regional government offices, officials’ private offices and homes, as well as three companies.

Some 20 people are under investigation for alleged disobedience, abuse of power and embezzlement related to the referendum.

The Spanish constitutional courts have repeatedly ruled that it is illegal for the region to hold a referendum on independence. Article 2 of Spain’s 1978 constitution refers to “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” and “the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards”.
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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:59 pm

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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:30 am

katalonci malo pimpovali auto 'gvardije sivil'

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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Gargantua on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:43 am

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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:49 am

Madrid aktivira lojaliste, očekivano.

Idemo, zna se šta je sledeći korak...





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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:01 am

Samo da izjavim da bih voleo da se raspadne Španija, voleo bih da se sve raspadne, da propadne i da ode u kurac, da opet vladaju vojvode, markgrofovi, duždevi, gilde i areopazi, nek ide sve u pičku lepu materinu.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by William Murderface on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:02 am

U Jugoslaviji se to već desilo, šta nam hvali?


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Kinder Lad on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:13 am

Ma, mislim, da može da se raspadne pa i ajde, nego...jebaće im mater i niko im neće u suštini reći ništa osim nekakvih verbalnih prekora. Zato bi i voleo da se smiri, da ne ginu ljudi bez veze.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Kinder Lad on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:19 am

A kapiram da im je ideja da izazovu nerede i onda, k sožanjeniju, mora se uvesti "privremeno" vanredno stanje, jelte.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

Post by Hubert de Montmirail on Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:19 am

Pa počeli su već da im jebu mater angažujući fašiste da love pojedince po ulicama.

Nema šanse, ali nema teoretske šanse, da Španija zadrži Kataloniju, posebno ne ovakvim kosovskim pristupom. Možda Kataloncima neće uspeti danas ali hoće vrlo brzo.


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Re: Kataloniji u čast - mogući referendoom

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